plus 3 golfer

I plan on keeping my C-Max for quite some time so trade-in and resale aren't as important to me as the car not being dependable (AKA, battery no start issue). I can live with the trips to the dealer for the safety recalls, software updates and so forth albeit the trips are a nuisance. As long as Ford continues to correct the issues, there's little (maybe no) basis for a class action suit. I think the recalls speak to why Ford is below average in reliability / first year ownership surveys. "Quality means doing it right when no one is looking." - Henry Ford "You can’t build a reputation on what you are going to do." - Henry Ford "Vision without execution is just hallucination." - Henry Ford

If you ordered an ELM 327 that says it supports all protocols then you are good. But if it only supports J1850-PWM (an older protocol used by Ford) then it won't work. The C-Max does not use this protocol. The C-Max uses the ISO 15765 CAN protocol (which I thought all manufacturers had to use as of a few years ago). Look at the pins in the OBDII connector and you will see that pins 2 and 10 (J1850-PWM) are not there but pins 6 and 14 are there (ISO CAN) in the diagrams in this link. I hope you ordered the right one.

Too many. I like my C-Max SEL but it gets old running to the dealer 5 going on 6 times with this recall in 15 months. SE models have had more recalls than the SEL model. 1st year of ownership - 4 times to the dealer - musty AC, 13C02, 13B07, 13C07 - (only 13B07 was a software update) + 1 self install software update SYNC with MyFord Touch which many likely had the dealer do. 2nd year of ownership through 3 months - 2 times - Service Stability Traction Control Message code U0126 and prospectively for 14C03.

It depends on your phone or tablet or PC you plan to use in the car. I have an older IPad just with WiFi and an IPhone with Bluetooth and WiFi. So, I bought the ELM 327 with WiFi. Then you'll need an iOS or Android app to monitor and record data. I have both Engine Link and DashCommand. EngineLink allows custom PID so you can look at Vehicle specific data by entering the appropriate address and formulae. But, the logged data is not in a readily usable form. DashCommand is a more full featured app but does not allow custom PIDs But the log data is in csv file format and easy to manipulate in Excel.

My mistake. What distance did you travel when you noticed the issue? Can you initiate this mixed mode anytime? If so, you may want to go to the dealer and demonstrate it to them. In 5 minutes at a 75F ambient your car should be out of warmup mode. Even in warm up mode, I've never noticed what you describe as ICE may idle at stop and not shut off but once you accelerate even in warm-up mode, ICE rpm increases and charges the battery. EV shouldn't run except during acceleration from a stop up to around 15 mph or so. If you look at the first part of the graph (under 50 seconds), I was in warm up mode. EV ran while backing, and driving a few hundred feet to a stop sign. After I turned and accelerated EV stayed on until my speed reached 11 mph (about 21.3 seconds after I left home) ICE then came on and stayed on until I was coasting to a stop about one mile from home. ICE shut off at 17 mph and coolant temperature was about 53*C. So, with higher ambient temperatures it doesn't take long to get out of warmup. Even when the ambient is lower like this morning at 62*C, I was still out of warm-up by one mile from home. Only when the ambient temp is around 50F or below and the garaged car is at 55 F does it take another 1/2 mile at 45 - 55 mph to get out of warmup mode. Bottom line is that IMO, your issue does not fit the parameters of warm-up mode. I think that the way to see what is happening with you car is to buy an iOS or Android App and an ELM 327 interface and record vehicle data . Otherwise, it's speculation.

I agree this is great data for someone to compare their data against and it's a relatively simple procedure to collect the data. How did the 9V battery in the multimeter hold up? What multimeter are you using? Mine is probably 15 years old or more. It might be time for a new one that can record data.

Nothing wrong with expressing an opinion or providing a link to the warm-up operations which is great information. My opinion is that the warm-up was completed and showed why I thought so. What is wrong with that? But, do whatever you so desire to do and for whatever reason. If you don't like someone responding to your posts, you probably should avoid the forum. As I've said many times, this isn't Facebook.

There is a jacking point on each side of the C-Max indicated by a triangle on the rocker panel trim piece in front of the rear wheels. You'll see the pinch weld if you look under the car at that point. That jacking point will lift the entire side of the car up - front and back wheels off the ground. I would think that if the front is on ramps, you could still use that point to lift the rear wheels up to level. See this thread. http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/topic/430-jacking-points/?hl=%2Bjacking+%2Bpoints

webcontrol states 5 miles from home, 75 F ambient. So, it seems unlikely that coolant temperature never reached 55*C after 5 miles of operation where normal operation will take place especially if one looks at my updated graph below for coolant temperature. But I guess it's possible. webcontrol says both ICE and EV ran and thus battery was being depleted when cruising at 40 mph 5 miles from home. I don't believe this is a warm-up condition. In addition, I scanned my data and can find no instances where ICE ran and battery level didn't rise or basically stay the same (high ICE). There was never a case where ICE ran and EV was being depleted in normal cruising on flat ground. Either there is a problem with webcontol's car or he may not really know what he thinks he saw. In my trip coolant started out at 84F (garaged) and dropped to 81F as the ambient air was 70F before starting to climb. At about 1/2 mile and 50 seconds, coolant was above 40C where the warm-up stage s1(b) likely ended. At about 110 seconds or about one mile from home I reached 53C. My speed during this first 110 seconds averaged about 30 mph. ICE was generally running between about 1500 and 2000 rpm. ICE also shut down at 107 seconds with speed at 14 mph as I was coming to a stop. ICE started again at 134 seconds at 1879 RPM and 15 mph. I reached 55C which is the highest hurdle to clear to end warm-up at the 146 second mark about 1 1/4 miles from the start. Also, my grille covers were not on my car during this testing.

That's the problem "what do words mean". Ford's press release in August 2013 (see excerpt below, which better be truthful) is very clear to me: the 2014 C-Max will have transmission hardware gearing changes. Since the final drive axle ratio appears to be the same in the 2013 and 2014 C-Max Hybrid according to Ford specs and since Ford now comes out with this new transmission description for MY 2014 -- " 2 speed CVT w/OD", their August 2013 press release appears to be validated that hardware has changed. Raj Nair, group vice president, global product development for Ford is quoted in the August 2013 press release. Raj in December 2012 in defence of why consumers and reviewers couldn't get the EPA rated 47 mpg basically said the wide degree of variability in actual hybrid mileage is due to factors like speed, break-in, temperature, driving style but never mentioned the fact that Ford never tested the C-Max but instead used the Fusion Hybrid FE numbers for the C-Max Hybrid EPA rating. Ford "duped" us once. Did they do it again with words??? ;) I hope not.

Yes, I know it fills up driving down a hill as I have noticed several times. But when assessing the % fill by eyeball, it's natural to ignore it. Even when I count it, I see an actual 48% SOC when the battery symbol looks to be at 50% counting the tip. My point is when someone says their battery level was at 30%, one has to question what really was their SOC. My next trip into the mountains I plan to record data and will see what the maximum SOC reaches going downhill (hannahwcu got just shy of 70%). When I travel in the mountains on steep, long, curvy grades, I use grade assist and Low when descending, shifting in and out to decrease and increase speed. I virtually never have to touch the brakes (which would likely be friction) or the accelerator. The battery fills to the tip very quickly going down longer grades but unfortunately I didn't think of recording or monitoring SOC. Just slowing down from 55 to 7 mph in about 21 seconds spiked the SOC 5.9% points (shown in the graph after the 55 mph ECO cruise).

That's why I ask because I would have thought that the car might not reach sleep mode in just 2.5 minutes (and it may not have given that you saw higher readings later). I think if you set the scan to once every 4 seconds, it would be sufficient to capture any changes and thus allow you to record 11+ hours. And then if there is a pattern of blips seen, you could decrease the time between scans appropriately to see what the blips look like. Or you could do it in reverse and start with a small change in time between scans and capture data for a few hours first and then extend to more hours. Either way this will be very interesting to see what happens over time.

I think there is a misconception of how much battery capacity is actually used by the algorithms during normal operation, what the battery symbol really is, and trying to save EV for later will results in a significant boost to FE. Based on my observations, what other's have observed, and common practices used in hybrid operations to ensure battery longevity, the PCM algorithms limit the usable capacity of the high voltage battery to between about 30% and 70% of the maximum battery capacity of 1.4 kWh. But in normal operation on fairly flat roads at all speeds, I have observed / recorded that generally the state of charge (SOC) of the HVB stays between about 40% and 55% of the capacity. Very seldom do I see the SOC dropping below 38% and above 65%. There really isn't a lot of usable energy to save for a rainy day. So, 15% of the capacity is only 0.21 kWh (0.15 x 1.4 kWh). Yet, looking at the battery symbol one would think that the usable energy would be a significantly higher portion of the 1.4 kWh. The battery symbol display does not represent the SOC of the battery but appears to represent the % of the usable capacity. I see about the same relationship that hannawcu saw in this post between usable capacity and HVB SOC. Also, the battery symbol requires a "calibrated eyeball" to read with any degree of accuracy and does one count the tip of the battery symbol or not. I can say that when the battery symbol appears to show 50% (to me), the SOC is 48+%. When the battery symbol appears to show about 1/3, the SOC is about 45% and when the battery symbol shows about 2/3, the SOC is about 52%. When the battery level is about a lines width from touching the top of the battery (not the tip), the SOC reads about 64%. Also, one may think a road is flat but it usually isn't. I use my Garmin to display elevation while traveling and use Google Earth and topo maps after the fact to see how elevation changes may have affected my recorded data. Small changes in elevation, wind and so forth affect load on the vehicle and how the powertrain algorithm reacts to maintain speed - run ICE, run EV, coast, run ICE and EV. Bottom line is that trying to second guess why the algorithms choose to run ICE instead of EV, EV instead of ICE, or both and to think that operating the powertrain differently would have been better with such limited data is a fruitless exercise. However, this is not saying that anticipating driving conditions and forcing certain powertrain operations can't improve FE. Hypermilers anticipate driving conditions all the time to maximize FE. But I'll say this again, hypermilers typically sacrifice time for FE. Their average speed is lower than they think as they P&G, coast, and so forth. Below I've posted a trip I recorded recently to show how the SOC changes over 42 miles. Also note that ECO cruise was set at 55 mph just before the 800 second mark for about 5 miles. SOC climbed from low 40s to about 58% where it leveled off. This is the point many refer to as high ICE. There is virtually no change in SOC and RPM remains fairly constant varying for the slight changes in load. FE looks to average about 47 mpg into nearly 10 mph sustained wind. But I wondered why the FE dropped during this period from a high of about 48 to 46 mpg. Even though the road looked flat during the entire 5 miles, the first part was downhill and the last 1 1/4 miles was flat.

Interesting, maybe there's a scan / check of modules every so often for another few hours. If I understand the graph, the X axis goes from 0-280 scans and each scan is about 2 seconds so the total time is about 560 seconds or 9 minutes 20 seconds. IIRC, on the VW procedure for checking for current drain via measuring voltage drop across fuses, the procedure has one begin the check after 2 hours so all modules are asleep. Can you log all night?

That's one problem "advertising". I believe this forum is a for profit business - more members = more advertising revenue = more profit. Also, because one is not directly profiting from trademark use does not make it legal. In addition, Paul does sell C-Max grille covers and actively promotes them on this site. Paul could also be viewed as a Ford / dealer employee. There is no disclaimer on this side of the card indicating otherwise. Remember the "C-Max silhouette" discussion for t-shirts for the 2013 C-Max gathering that never happened. IIRC mtb9153, you indicated you contacted Ford online about using Ford trademarks on the shirts. What was their response? I recall Robert Lane indicating that one would likely have to also get the silhouette artist's permission. Now having said the above, the chances of Ford do anything is nil and if they did, it would simply be sending a cease and desist letter.

The Ford trademark logo (and perhaps the name of this forum) is copyright / trademark protected.

craze, welcome. The short answer is we don't know. No one on this site (AFAIK) that has compiled a comprehensive list of owners that have had the battery issue and done analysis. The poll is likely not a good reference only a starting point for analysis. It appears that owners have had battery issues after they've had all updates that supposedly remedied the issue. A few things to consider which are not based on analysis, just my thoughts and recollection. I'm sure others will jump in if they disagree. 1) The failure rate seems to be fairly small but owners that have had a no start seem to have a higher likelihood of multiple no starts suggesting the root cause is not a random occurrence but may be related to the operational environment and conditions. 2) It seems that the no start occurs virtually always at home. It seems the car need to be off for a period of time (say 10 - 12 hours) suggesting a large drain on the 12V battery. 3) It also seems that the no start issue occurs earlier rather than later after in-service. In other words, if one hasn't had a no start issue within XX months, the likelihood of a no start diminishes. 4) It seems that the SEL and Energi models have a less likelihood of a no start as it appears that Ford updates to fix the no start targeted the SE model. There are certain things one can do to lessen the inconvenience of or hedge against a no start (in no particular order). 1) Carry a set of jumper cables under the driver's seat (I do this). 2) Carry a small battery jump start kit as it appears that is all that is needed to allow the electronics to operate and start the car. 3) Put the battery on a trickle charger. 4) Monitor the 12 V battery voltage as an indication of state of charge. The C-Max is a great car. Only you can weighs the pros and cons. One last thought and that is Ford appears to be receptive to buybacks under lemon laws for those that have had the issue multiple times.

Is there any information on the Ford immobilizer system with that software? What does access mean? Unlock the doors? Start the car? Like I said above, is it really as easy as breaking a window, plugging in an ELM 327 and stealing a new Ford? That's not much different than hot jumping a pre-immobilizer car. One can certainly view / change programs / data with software tools (for example tuners do this all the time) but can they generate an encrypted authorization codes each time a vehicle is started. A quick internet search indicates that no one has yet cracked (or admits to cracking) VW's gen 4 immobilizer. Here's what VW says:

They could just break a window, plug in an adapter, and still drive off. :) I'm not worried since IMO it's a very, very, very low risk of a thief driving around looking for a C-Max with a WIFI adapter plugged in. If it were that easy to steal a car, they will likely have an adapter with them. VW in 2007 (and I'd have to believe Ford would have something similar) put a new encryption on the immobilizer system so one cannot simply extract the key codes so that one can reprogram an RFID chip in a matter of several minutes. I am not aware of any aftermarket device (like in the old days) that can obtain the VW code needed from the vehicle. So, if a thief really wants the vehicle, they would simply tow it away as anything else would likely be impracticable. Does your friend have a source for his information on cracking the Ford immobilizer system? Or is it simply: anything is possible because one can access the vehicle via the OBDII port?

Exactly, please people post the exact diagnostic troubles codes found if any, the documented problem, and the work performed including any service action item codes, recall codes, and so forth. It's on the service order that one receives when checking out whether under warranty or whether you pay for the service. Ask the SA what the numbers that are shown in the descriptive part of the service order mean. Best would be to simply scan the descriptive part of the service order and post as this will likely help others that have similar issues.

Please look at your four service orders and list the actual diagnostic trouble codes found and what it says was done to remedy the situation. O2 sensors fail all the time. This will help others that might have the same issues.

IMO, Ford hit a home run with the parody (and a grand slam when compared to the C-Max beats Prius V silhouette commercials). The message in GM's commercial is clearly aimed at the affluent "you work hard, you create your own luck, and you've got to believe anything is possible" - "bleep" the Europeans, it's about a pool, big house and an ELR. IMO, wrong message GM as to why buy an ELR. CAFE and the Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007 are requiring you to increase fleet FE for the betterment of the US (and world). The C-max commercial clearly sends the message "you work hard, you believe that anything is possible, and you try to make the world better, you try" - recycle, save resources, drive a C-Max. IMO, Ford is getting it right. This commercial plus the Sal and Family commercial are two home runs.

No, it never dawned on me to run one. But I will if it happens again. Has anyone run a VHR when they had a CEL or alarm message? I'm curious as to what info it gives.

Seems I recall a thread on the specs of the C-Max wheel and someone thought the size and offset were stamped on the inside of the wheel.

This post is to document an alarm message I got on the left hand display while driving my C-Max for reference. The message was "SERVICE STABILITRAC (sp)". The traction control light illuminated (squiggly lines) and the traction control "OFF" was also illuminated. The traction control system turned from "on" to "off" and could not be set to "on". There was no other performance / drivability effect on the vehicle. I drove about 34 miles home and made an appointment with the dealer. Later in the day, I took the C-Max out and the same message popped up upon start-up and the lights were illuminated. After I drove about an 1/8 mile, the traction lights turned off and stability control was turned back on. Even though things returned to normal, I still took it to the dealer to document the issue and see if there were codes stored (for potential future warranty claims). MIleage on car was about 22k miles. The dealer found an intermittent diagnostic trouble code stored: U0126 Lost Communication With Steering Angle Sensor Module. The dealer cleared the code and ran PinPoint Test K1-K2 which indicated everything was normal at that time. I believe these tests check for proper voltages, continuity, and so forth.. So, we'll see if it happens again. I would think that before the loss of communication code would be triggered that a threshold level (timeout after so many communication attempts) would need to be exceeded.