SSM 44252 - Hybrids In Taxi Service - HF35 Transmission Bearing Noise

[Bill-N]

While I doubt this is relevant to forum members at this time, I thought it was worth documenting:

SSM 44252 - Hybrids In Taxi Service - HF35 Transmission Bearing Noise

Some 2013 C-MAX Hybrid and 2013-2014 Fusion Hybrid vehicles operating in taxi service may exhibit a metal-on-metal scraping-type sound from the transmission. This noise will be present in all gear ranges including neutral when the vehicle is moving, but will not be present when the vehicle is stationary or in park. The current transmission assembly (7000) service parts incorporate design improvements to enhance durability under the unique operating conditions of taxi service.

 

[wab]

Here's somebody who is probably very interested.

http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/topic/2415-ford-c-max-taxi-fleet/?hl=transmission

May even be the cause.

 

Note to self and other people who tow their cmax:

We have over 3K towed miles not registered on the OD.

 

I have a hard time getting the ICE to run when we stop to

 

"Start the engine and allow it to run for five minutes at the beginning

of each day and every six hours thereafter. With the engine running

and your foot on the brake, shift into D (Drive) and then into R

(Reverse) before shifting back into N (Neutral)."

 

I have to turn on lots of stuff (ac, lights, radio, etc) to get the ICE to even start, then it only runs for a little while, NOT 5 minutes.

[fotomoto]

I have to turn on lots of stuff (ac, lights, radio, etc) to get the ICE to even start, then it only runs for a little while, NOT 5 minutes.

 

No need to turn things on just push the gas pedal to the floor and hold it.  ICE will start.  Now as to the 5 min. part, I have no suggestion other than to keep it floored until the battery fills up because the ICE should stop running regardless of the pedal position.  I would think that should be more than sufficient for lubrication purposes.

[drdiesel1]

This was not a problem for the Energi models... They have an external ATF pump for the extended EV range.

 

If it was my car, I would add the external pump ;)

Edited October 26, 2013 by drdiesel1

[obob]

 

While I doubt this is relevant to forum members at this time, I thought it was worth documenting:

SSM 44252 - Hybrids In Taxi Service - HF35 Transmission Bearing Noise

Some 2013 C-MAX Hybrid and 2013-2014 Fusion Hybrid vehicles operating in taxi service may exhibit a metal-on-metal scraping-type sound from the transmission. This noise will be present in all gear ranges including neutral when the vehicle is moving, but will not be present when the vehicle is stationary or in park. The current transmission assembly (7000) service parts incorporate design improvements to enhance durability under the unique operating conditions of taxi service.

 

To me this means that my car probably will be needing a transmission at some point.  And it probably is expensive(And I hope I am wrong and it is not expensive).  Thanks for the post.

Edited October 26, 2013 by obob

[drdiesel1]

To me this means that my car probably will be needing a transmission at some point.  And it probably is expensive(And I hope I am wrong and it is not expensive).  Thanks for the post.

CVTe is covered for 8/100K

[obob]

CVTe is covered for 8/100K

"The dealer is stating that this would be covered up to 60,000 miles" from post #7 of http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/topic/2998-new-trans-at-52k-miles/

 

Though if enough people are upset Ford may extend it in some "secret" warrantee extention.

Edited October 26, 2013 by obob

[wab]

To me this means that my car probably will be needing a transmission at some point.  And it probably is expensive(And I hope I am wrong and it is not expensive).  Thanks for the post.

 

CVT transmissions have a reputation for having short lives.

The C-Max has a "NEW" transmission that is already showing these tendencies.

 

from the owners manual

"Every 150000 miles Change automatic transmission fluid.

(240000 km)"

 

If we were not towing our cmax I would cut this in half NOW I think I'll be changing it @ 50K.

 

Edit:  "required maintenance"

Did you know that Ford's core business is selling the box that CVT transmissions come in.

Edited October 26, 2013 by wab

[drdiesel1]

CVT transmissions have a reputation for having short lives.

The C-Max has a "NEW" transmission that is already showing these tendencies.

 

from the owners manual

"Every 150000 miles Change automatic transmission fluid.

(240000 km)"

 

If we were not towing our cmax I would cut this in half NOW I think I'll be changing it @ 50K.

 

Edit:  "required maintenance"

Did you know that Ford's core business is selling the box that CVT transmissions come in.

I will be servicing my trans @ 10K for the first round and probably ever 20K after that. Depends on the requirements shown by

the ATF. I might even step it up to 5K on the first one due to this SSM information ;)

[Tdefny]

CVT transmissions on conventional cars may have a tarnished reputatio, but the eCVT systems on hybrids have a good reliability history.

[obob]

"SSM 44252 - Hybrids In Taxi Service - HF35 Transmission Bearing Noise

...  The current transmission assembly (7000) service parts incorporate design improvements to enhance durability under the unique operating conditions of taxi service"

 

 

I suspect what's unique is that the failure happens while it is still under warranty.

 

Other than that, what's so unique ?  ( After reading post #12, perhaps there is something unique about using the car for such a high percent of the day. )

 

This is why the foreign manufacturers are reluctant bring there new designs to the US.  It messes up their reliability stats and pisses off customers.

 

How can I tell what version of the transmission I have ?  ( Mar 2013 manufacture date )

 

If it wasn't such an expensive fix, they probably would have a recall.

 

Perhaps I should sell my car to a taxi cab company so the problem will come out soon enough to be cover by warranty.

 

My sense is that changing the trans oil isn't going to help much.  I assume there is a filter that filters out metal chips and there isn't pollution from gas combustion. ( This may not be correct - see drdiesel1's post #12. )

 

Added later: I will wait and see what Ford does to set things right.

Edited October 26, 2013 by obob

[drdiesel1]

 

"SSM 44252 - Hybrids In Taxi Service - HF35 Transmission Bearing Noise

...  The current transmission assembly (7000) service parts incorporate design improvements to enhance durability under the unique operating conditions of taxi service"

 

 

I suspect what's unique is that the failure happens while it is still under warranty.

 

Other than that, what's so unique ?

 

This is why the foreign manufacturers are reluctant bring there new designs to the US.  It messes up their reliability stats and pisses off customers.

 

Stuff like this means low resell value.

 

How can I tell what version of the transmission I have ?  ( Mar 2013 manufacture date )

 

If it wasn't such an expensive fix, they probably would have a recall.

 

Perhaps I should sell my car to a taxi cab company so the problem will come out soon enough to be cover by warranty.

 

My sense is that changing the trans oil isn't going to help much.  I assume there is a filter that filters out metal chips and there isn't pollution from gas combustion.

 

The Ford trans is their own design with patents from Toyota. Toyota traded for Ford patents and use rights.

 

The problem is from lack of lubrication while the ICE is off. As I stated in my first post.  The Energi's are exempt from this SSM due to the fact, they have an external ATF pump to circulate ATF while the ICE is off. Adding the pump would eliminate this condition. This trans has no filter. The trans is cooled and lubricated by the ATF only.

Keeping it changed will reduce the amount of particulates circulating throughout the trans suspended in the fluid.

[obob]

The Ford trans is their own design with patents from Toyota. Toyota traded for Ford patents and use rights.

 

The problem is from lack of lubrication while the ICE is off. As I stated in my first post.  The Energi's are exempt from this SSM due to the fact, they have an external ATF pump to circulate ATF while the ICE is off. Adding the pump would eliminate this condition. This trans has no filter. The trans is cooled and lubricated by the ATF only.

Keeping it changed will reduce the amount of particulates circulating throughout the trans suspended in the fluid.

Thanks. You seem to be very well informed. 

[drdiesel1]

Thanks. You seem to be very well informed. 

Thanks.  I try to keep up with the latest information on all vehicles.  If its' something I own, then I make sure I stay well informed :victory:

[ChuckJr]

Not sure if this has been covered somewhere else but can us Hybrid owners add/mod to have the external ATF pump like the Energi?

Do we have part numbers for the external pump?

Are there access ports in the CVT housing already?

Rough estimate on the total dough this would cost versus the replacement of our trans when it fails?

[drdiesel1]

Not sure if this has been covered somewhere else but can us Hybrid owners add/mod to have the external ATF pump like the Energi?

Do we have part numbers for the external pump?

Are there access ports in the CVT housing already?

Rough estimate on the total dough this would cost versus the replacement of our trans when it fails?

It's possible, but I don't what the conversion would cost.

The trans is covered under the 8/100K warranty or at least by the 3/50 power train coverage.

 

For coverage beyond that point, it would be cheaper to by the Ford ESP warranty.

Edited October 30, 2013 by drdiesel1

[Edsel]

It's possible, but I don't what the conversion would cost.

The trans is covered under the 8/100K warranty or at least by the 3/50 power train coverage.

 

For coverage beyond that point, it would be cheaper to by the Ford ESP warranty.

 

I thought it was 3/36, did they change it?

[drdiesel1]

I thought it was 3/36, did they change it?

I'm in CA, so it's 3/50 here. CA has higher warranty coverages. We have a 10 yr. 150K mile EV battery coverage :happy feet:

Edited October 30, 2013 by drdiesel1

[obob]

The Ford trans is their own design with patents from Toyota. Toyota traded for Ford patents and use rights.

 

The problem is from lack of lubrication while the ICE is off. As I stated in my first post.  The Energi's are exempt from this SSM due to the fact, they have an external ATF pump to circulate ATF while the ICE is off. Adding the pump would eliminate this condition. This trans has no filter. The trans is cooled and lubricated by the ATF only.

Keeping it changed will reduce the amount of particulates circulating throughout the trans suspended in the fluid.

 

I would like to know more about why you say this.  Can you provide a link to the info ?  Thanks

Edited November 16, 2013 by obob

[drdiesel1]

This has a short blurb about the patents they traded:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive

 

 

[obob]

The problem is from lack of lubrication while the ICE is off. As I stated in my first post.  The Energi's are exempt from this SSM due to the fact, they have an external ATF pump to circulate ATF while the ICE is off. Adding the pump would eliminate this condition. This trans has no filter. The trans is cooled and lubricated by the ATF only.

Keeping it changed will reduce the amount of particulates circulating throughout the trans suspended in the fluid.

Sorry I wasn't more specific.  What is the source of "The problem is from lack of lubrication while the ICE is off."  Did you kind of deduce this since the energi models are not part of SSM 44252 or is there a source of what has been changed.

[drdiesel1]

Sorry I wasn't more specific.  What is the source of "The problem is from lack of lubrication while the ICE is off."  Did you kind of deduce this since the energi models are not part of SSM 44252 or is there a source of what has been changed.

My Energi has an external pump. It was added to the trans to allow the system to run on 100% (21 miles) EV power with the larger HVB.

The hybrid is not equipped with this same pump. Yes, I deduced this based on design differences between them.

[webcontrol]

DrDiesel1,  did you changed your transmission fluid?  I want to do the same, hope someone can show me some pictures.

[jdbob]

DrDiesel1 hasn't been on for the past month. I'm not going to say any more than that  :drool:

[obob]

I wrote Ford last year (oct-nov) (2013)

 

I wrote:

 

I am concerned that the transmission problems experienced by taxi drivers will cause my transmission to fail, though maybe after more miles than a taxi driver. SSM 44252 - Hybrids In Taxi Service - HF35 Transmission Bearing Noise Some 2013 C-MAX Hybrid and 2013-2014 Fusion Hybrid vehicles operating in taxi service may exhibit a metal-on-metal scraping-type sound from the transmission. ... The current transmission assembly (7000) service parts incorporate design improvements to enhance durability under the unique operating conditions of taxi service. I am not sure if this is true "The problem is from lack of lubrication while the ICE is off. As I stated in my first post. The Energi's are exempt from this SSM due to the fact, they have an external ATF pump to circulate ATF while the ICE is off. Adding the pump would eliminate this condition." from: (Gave link to this thread where it was, but it doesn't seem to want to paste in here for me right now)

 

They wrote back:

 

After researching your inquiry, according to our Technical Subject Matter Expert, the transmission concerns when the vehicle is used in taxi service is inherent in the type of usage that a Taxi typically experiences, frequent stop and go and extended operation.  The temperature of the transmission fluid and additional lubrication provided by the auxiliary cooling pump is not a factor in the type of failure experienced when the vehicle is used as a taxi.  The transmission fluid level and condition should be inspected during normal scheduled maintenance and serviced at 150,000 mile intervals.

 

In regards to your concern with the possibility of engine failure in the future, please understand the projected life expectancy of our vehicles and their part/s is obtained through designed laboratory tests, under a controlled environment.  The life expectancy depends on how, when, and where the vehicle is driven.  As such, we cannot guarantee coverage on a repair that may not be necessary.

Edited May 2, 2015 by obob