Battery dead

[Don O.]

To drdiesel1 or others. What I'd like to understand is if I turn the key on & plug in the 12V digital monitor (like when it is 0F out there...), can I get an early indication that the 12V battery has drained some. If so, how low can it go before no lights/ dead 12V battery are eminent? :worship:

Edited October 12, 2013 by Don O.

[ArizonaEnergi]

To drdiesel1 or others. What I'd like to understand is if I turn the key on & plug in the 12V digital monitor (like when it is 0F out there...), can I get an early indication that the 12V battery has drained some. If so, how low can it go before no lights/ dead 12V battery are eminent? :worship:

 

No, you can't do that as diesel pointed out above.  When the car is on the 12v is being charged by the HV battery and what you'll see is the charging voltage.  What I do is plug in my voltmeter to the outlet in front, close the door, and let all the various circuits shut down over a few minutes, then I can read the voltage for about 15 minutes with minimal extra drain.  Or, plug it into the rear outlet and after all the circuits shut down in a few minutes you will get a reading with nothing extra running - if you can see it.  I can't do this because of my limo tint. 

 

I don't know what the lowest it can be and still start, but I had a lot of 12.1v readings and it still started.   I would guess it would have to be below 12v before it didn't have enough voltage to activate the circuits.

 

This is the poll I started on voltage readings that had minimal participation.  I finally stopped monitoring mine after the DCDC service mod as it showed an improvement and I never had any problems starting the car, and I got bored checking it. http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/topic/1566-what-is-your-12-volt-battery-voltage/?hl=%2Bvoltage+%2Bchart&do=findComment&comment=14799

 

This is the voltage monitor I bought, although it turned out to show the same as the older one I used while RVing:  http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000EVWDU0/ref=oh_details_o09_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Edited October 12, 2013 by ArizonaEnergi

[wab]

Anybody know or have any info why Ford went with a CCA biased battery instead of a deep cycle?

 

 

I'm sure all those relays pull pretty good, but surely not as much as a starter AND relays in a normal car.

All those relays need to stay operated while the cmax is on, so again looks like a need for a high amp hour rating???

 

Maybe they couldn't find one small or light enough?

 

 

Probably just a bottom line item $ :lol2: .

[Sparky]

Anybody know or have any info why Ford went with a CCA biased battery instead of a deep cycle?

 

Maybe they couldn't find one small or light enough?

 

 

 

Check out this post: http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/topic/361-battery-dead/?p=12237

 

Bob999: "... the 96R ...  is listed as the replacement battery in the specifications page of the owners manual (page 350).  In fact the only batteries listed in the owners manual have larger capacities than the battery Ford is installing in the car at the factory.  The listed batteries are: BXT-96R-500 / BXT-96R-590"

[drdiesel1]

Anybody know or have any info why Ford went with a CCA biased battery instead of a deep cycle?

 

 

I'm sure all those relays pull pretty good, but surely not as much as a starter AND relays in a normal car.

All those relays need to stay operated while the cmax is on, so again looks like a need for a high amp hour rating???

 

Maybe they couldn't find one small or light enough?

 

 

Probably just a bottom line item $ :lol2: .

Deep cycle batteries aren't designed for automotive use. RV and Marine use. The DC/DC converter charges the 12V battery.

[Missyopu]

I was hoping my battery problem was fixed in may. I had the battery replaced and was lucky til today. it is dead again. I will have to wait til Monday to get it taken to the dealer. I was just starting to feel like it was ok. This is very depressing. I know some of you have been through a lot more dead batteries than me, but I have to say I really wish I had gotten a Prius. It is not as fun to drive and nowhere near as nice but everyone I know who has one is satisfied and has had no problems.

[jdbob]

Anybody know or have any info why Ford went with a CCA biased battery instead of a deep cycle?

 

An AGM deep-cycle battery would be ideal for this application. But Ford wouldn't be able to buy one for $20 or whatever they paid for the ones they are buying from Mexico. I suspect as more and more cars are made that don't need CCA the market may eventually respond. Maybe Optima.

[drdiesel1]

I was hoping my battery problem was fixed in may. I had the battery replaced and was lucky til today. it is dead again. I will have to wait til Monday to get it taken to the dealer. I was just starting to feel like it was ok. This is very depressing. I know some of you have been through a lot more dead batteries than me, but I have to say I really wish I had gotten a Prius. It is not as fun to drive and nowhere near as nice but everyone I know who has one is satisfied and has had no problems.

Are you using the USB port for a thumb drive or iPod ?   Why not buy a cheap but good charger until they resolve this issue ?

Here's the one I've been using for the last 2 years. It's cheap and foolproof.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_7?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=ship%20n%20shore%20speed%20charge%20ssc-1500a&sprefix=ship+n+%2Caps%2C335&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Aship%20n%20shore%20speed%20charge%20ssc-1500a

 

You won't need to wait for a tow truck and you can drive the car until a "REAL" fix is found.

 

 

You should have the TSB performed to correct the voltage problem.

I don't think it was available back in, MAY ?

 

 

The Toyota is a turd................................... :drop: :spend:

Edited October 13, 2013 by drdiesel1

[wab]

Deep cycle batteries aren't designed for automotive use. RV and Marine use. The DC/DC converter charges the 12V battery.

 

The C-Max isn't a "normal auto."

There is no 12V starter motor so no need for high Cold Cranking Amps.

[Missyopu]

hi drdiesl

 

Are you using the USB port for a thumb drive or iPod ?   Why not buy a cheap but good charger until they resolve this issue ?

Here's the one I've been using for the last 2 years. It's cheap and foolproof.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_7?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=ship%20n%20shore%20speed%20charge%20ssc-1500a&sprefix=ship+n+%2Caps%2C335&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Aship%20n%20shore%20speed%20charge%20ssc-1500a

 

You won't need to wait for a tow truck and you can drive the car until a "REAL" fix is found.

 

 

You should have the TSB performed to correct the voltage problem.

I don't think it was available back in, MAY ?

 

 

The Toyota is a turd................................... :drop: :spend:

 

I don't use the ipod or usb.. I do use the Bluetooth for music and the phone, but that's it. I considered getting a charger but I have never used one before. Is it one you can use by using the cigarette lighter plug ? I really have no knowledge of how to jump a car. I am a little frustrated with my little c-max but I still don't want to blow it up. I do want records with ford of any problems just in case. My car was in about 2 months ago and had all the updates it was supposed to have I think. The dealer I take it to seems knowledgeable and I feel like they are on top of things like this. I have read most of this particular topic and it seems that many people have had the battery die more than once. It appears that this is a recurring problem once it starts. I was wondering of the people who have had a dead battery has anyone had a fix that has completely solved the problem. I seem to have found just one person who said that they had the battery in the back replaced and it seems like they have gone a long time without a recurrence..

 

Your little Toyota is a turd animation made me smile... I really did prefer the cmax after my test drives and don't want to have to incur more cost and trade in one new car for another. It would give me a larger car payment than I find comfortable but I honestly need a reliable car. I work in home health and my car is my bread and butter. I had read about the battery issue before I bought this car in the early part of the year and thought it must be an anomaly. There was not a lot of info or posts at that time. I had bought cars in their first year out before and there was no problem. I guess I was hoping I would be lucky again. This is my first hybrid. Does anyone know if all hybrids have battery problems this frequently ?

[drdiesel1]

hi drdiesl

 

This charger is simple to use. Open the hood and connect it to the 12V power stud and a ground point.

Plug it in and set the button for a 15 amp charge. The charger will do the rest.  If you did this once a month

you could avoid a dead battery issue. I would advise you to do this for the short term. Just to make your car

reliable until they get it fixed properly. Having the charger will allow you to never be stranded with a dead battery.

[Missyopu]

This charger is simple to use. Open the hood and connect it to the 12V power stud and a ground point.

Plug it in and set the button for a 15 amp charge. The charger will do the rest.  If you did this once a month

you could avoid a dead battery issue. I would advise you to do this for the short term. Just to make your car

reliable until they get it fixed properly. Having the charger will allow you to never be stranded with a dead battery.

Do you know of a good charger that you can use in the cigarette lighter ? I don't know what a 12 v power stud is. I know what a regular car battery looks like not sure beyond that.

[ArizonaEnergi]

Do you know of a good charger that you can use in the cigarette lighter ? I don't know what a 12 v power stud is. I know what a regular car battery looks like not sure beyond that.

This are the charge points under the hood.  Much better to use with a modern charger like diesel recommends than the 12v outlet in the back with a charger that uses that method.

Edited October 13, 2013 by ArizonaEnergi

[Missyopu]

•  

  This are the charge points under the hood.  Much better to use with a modern charger like diesel recommends than the 12v outlet in the back with a charger that uses that method.

  Charge Points.jpg

   

  thank you , I can see the charge posts you are pointing out, one more question, which one is the 12 v power stud and which one is the ground ? thank both of you for your help

[ArizonaEnergi]

 

thank you , I can see the charge posts you are pointing out, one more question, which one is the 12 v power stud and which one is the ground ? thank both of you for your help

 

 

Positive is the large one on the right.  You can see the cover that is normally over it.

[Don O.]

ArizonaEnergi said:

•  "When the car is on the 12v is being charged by the HV battery and what you'll see is the charging voltage. What I do is plug in my voltmeter to the outlet in front, close the door, and let all the various circuits shut down over a few minutes, then I can read the voltage for about 15 minutes with minimal extra drain. Or, plug it into the rear outlet and after all the circuits shut down in a few minutes you will get a reading with nothing extra running - if you can see it."

Outlet in front...Outlet in back? Am I right that this is for the Energi model ONLY? Guess I need to need my owner's manual (I have the CMAX se).  There is no outlet for me to plug into except the 12V one between the 2 front seats? And that is being charged by the HV Battery...If I want to monitor the 12V battery, I need to take a direct reading off the 12V battery posts by opening the hood and putting my probes on the + & ground connections. Right?

Edited October 13, 2013 by Don O.

[ArizonaEnergi]

No, the Hybrid model also has the rear 12v always-on outlet, although I don't know if the SE does.  It's on the passenger side at the back if you have one.  But you can plug a voltmeter into the front outlet with the car on, then turn it off and get out, and after all the lights automatically shut off you'll get a pretty good voltage reading.  But the reading from the battery posts under the hood will be better, and you don't have to start/stop the car and wait around.

Edited October 13, 2013 by ArizonaEnergi

[wab]

Anybody using something like this?

Junior 12V Battery Charger

http://www.amazon.com/Battery-Tender-021-0123-Junior-Charger/dp/B000CITK8S/ref=sr_1_2?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1381709880&sr=1-2&keywords=trickle+charge

 

I use an older version on my motorcycles.

 

The cord that clips to the terminals under the hood might reach through the grill, would be easy to make it reach.

You wouldn't have to open the hood to keep your battery charged, just plug the cables together.

[Don O.]

ArizonaEnergi Said:

 

"No, the Hybrid model also has the rear 12v always-on outlet, although I don't know if the SE does. It's on the passenger side at the back if you have one. But you can plug a voltmeter into the front outlet with the car on, then turn it off and get out, and after all the lights automatically shut off you'll get a pretty good voltage reading. But the reading from the battery posts under the hood will be better, and you don't have to start/stop the car and wait around."

 

Thx. I shall look around the passenger side. I have just ordered the little digital voltmeter. I would like to be able to get a 12V reading that I can perform without going under the hood ( for cold wintery days!). Your suggestion is a good one & the type of thing I plan to do.

 

I did just do a direct check on the 12V battery terminals using my little (analog) Radioshack multimeter (I use for dry cells) with probes. A bit hard to read on the 15V small scale. I have let my CMAX sit for 3 days without driving. Best I can tell, I'm getting a reading right at 12.5V.

***Update ***

I see I have a 12V outlet in front of my cupholder between the 2 front seats. Opening the console between the front seats, there is another 12V outlet in there. ( I live alone...). Does the one in the console always stay on while the one in front of it not? I am confused here. I would think they both would be functionally the same (?) 

Edited October 14, 2013 by Don O.

[wab]

Both shut down a few minutes after the car is turned off, at least on SEL's.

Do you have an outlet right rear inside the hatch? It will be on all the time.

[drdiesel1]

 

 

I did just do a direct check on the 12V battery terminals using my little (analog) Radioshack multimeter (I use for dry cells) with probes. A bit hard to read on the 15V small scale. I have let my CMAX sit for 3 days without driving. Best I can tell, I'm getting a reading right at 12.5V.

Your testing the voltage with the hatch open and all the interior and outside lights on. It's best to pop the hood and check the battery voltage at the power stud on the left (drivers) side of the engine compartment. This way, you're not causing the battery voltage to drop and you get a true reading.  I leave the hood popped open when parking it. That way, I don't disturb the system from opening the door, to open the hood. You'll drop a few volts with all the lights on and it will take a few min. for the battery to recover the loss after they go off.

Edited October 14, 2013 by drdiesel1

[kelpie]

New here, I joined because the battery was dead for the third time this morning and I hoping that soon it'll qualify for a lemon law. The first time in January '13 the car was only 3 weeks old so I just had roadside assistance come and they jumped it. I assumed it was a fluke even though I was positive I'd left nothing on. I wonder if that would be considered a repair attempt. The second time (three weeks ago) I got the firmware fix. I just called roadside assistance and had it towed instead of jumped since my dealer does not give loaners and I'd have no way to get home.

 

I see a few people have referenced starting the "buy back" process which I'm very interested in even though it sounds like my experience has not been as bad as others. C-MAX is a lovely car but for this issue, however I just cannot live with a brand new car that will leave me stranded periodically. Is there any information available on starting this process? In my state I have 12 months (until 12/13/13) and 3 repair attempts to file a claim under the lemon law. Are people taking the lemon law route or is it something you've worked out directly with Ford? Did the consumers have a lawyer involved? Thanks for your help.

 

ETA- I just spoke with the attorney general's office and they clarified for me the the lemon laws apply for the term of the warranty or 1 year, whichever is longer, so I fortunately I have more time than I thought for a resolution.

Edited October 15, 2013 by kelpie

[Don O.]

drdiesel1: Not sure I was very specific on my "check". I opened the driver's side door & popped the hood. Lifted it, & took a direct DC voltage reading between the red positive post and a ground bolt using my probes on my portable radioshack multimeter. OK so far? Should I wait x amount of time before doing this?

My analog reading was 'close' to 12.5V after my CMAX se was sitting in my garage for 3 days.

 

Kelpie: What do you understand as the term of the warranty?

[drdiesel1]

drdiesel1: Not sure I was very specific on my "check". I opened the driver's side door & popped the hood. Lifted it, & took a direct DC voltage reading between the red positive post and a ground bolt using my probes on my portable radioshack multimeter. OK so far? Should I wait x amount of time before doing this?

My analog reading was 'close' to 12.5V after my CMAX se was sitting in my garage for 3 days.

 

 

Opening the door activates the interior lighting and the exterior lighting. This will drop the battery voltage reading.  Next time, just pop the hood before you exit the car after you park it.  That way, when you want to check the batteries static voltage you won't cause the voltage draw and you'll have an accurate voltage reading. Otherwise, you should wait about 10min. after the lights have been off to get a voltage reading. I prefer to check it without causing a system load before I check it. It's a more accurate gauge of your battery voltage.

Edited October 15, 2013 by drdiesel1

[Don O.]

Thx drdiesel1. Makes sense to do as you suggest.

 

Wab? Yep. Have a 3rd 12V outlet on the passenger side of the car in the hatch area. About where the fuel inlet is located.. Hmmm. :dance:

Per drdiesel1, need to open the car door or hatch in order to use it for a reading so somethingees will get activated for awhile. :worship: