Battery dead

[RedLdr1]

Hi All:

 

Has anyone mentioned the defective instrument panel that was found to the problem for Redldr1 to their service tech? Has anyone had their instrument panel looked at?

 

Redldr1 what was the test your tech did to determine that the panel was defective?

 

I really wonder if we have a solution right under our nose.

 

Cheers

 

Andrew

 

 

Andrew,

 

The electronics guru at the dealership resorted to some "old school" trouble shooting techniques.  After the car was shut off he started looking at the different circuits to see where there was still a power draw.  Finding a "hot" circuit that shouldn't have been "hot" led him to the Instrument Panel....    It has been 5,000 miles since I had the IP replaced and I haven't had an issue since then.... :)

[salman]

RedLdr

 

May we please ask you to post the name of your dealership so that in our discussions with Ford we can make a clear reference to your case? That way Ford central can confer with the mechanics who worked on your car.

 

I do not think any of us have had a live circuit problem traced to the instrument panel or to anyplace else. Mbedit's car had a power drain but his mechanics never were able to trace it to a source, although, as I recall, he said they looked at the instrument panel, too. For all the rest of us, no power drain has shown up on tests, but this might be a byproduct of how the mechanics are testing for power drains.

[RedLdr1]

RedLdr

 

May we please ask you to post the name of your dealership so that in our discussions with Ford we can make a clear reference to your case? That way Ford central can confer with the mechanics who worked on your car.

 

I do not think any of us have had a live circuit problem traced to the instrument panel or to anyplace else. Mbedit's car had a power drain but his mechanics never were able to trace it to a source, although, as I recall, he said they looked at the instrument panel, too. For all the rest of us, no power drain has shown up on tests, but this might be a byproduct of how the mechanics are testing for power drains.

 

 

Sure, the dealership is Cherokee Ford, located in Woodstock, Georgia.  Their telephone number is 770-592-0090. 

 

Ford's engineers can easily look up the repair info, without calling the dealership, just by entering my VIN (PM Me for the VIN) in Ford's OASIS service software.  Their software should list the Warranty Repair details with the Part Numbers of the bits and pieces they replaced as well as the complete history, well their side of it anyway,  ;)  that I over viewed in my thread on the problem. 

 

If you want to chat about it PM me your contact info, I think I have the PM function here figured out now....

Edited February 26, 2013 by RedLdr1

[salman]

RedLdr

 

Thanks, that is very generous of you and the information about your case is very important for all of us who have our car in the shop or may have it in the shop again in the future. I think we will need to make Ford test circuits, especially around the instrument panel, in exactly the same way your dealer did it. Either it will produce results or it needs to be systematically eliminated as a potential cure by testing.

[andrewwx]

Thanks RedLdr

 

I just sent all of your information to my Ford dealer. I am intrigued because we both have (had) the no chirp on lock problem. I like it that your solution fixed the car without a software update. Or maybe the IP problem can be fixed with a software update if something is not being told to go to sleep properly. They have had my car for 28 days now I hope something happens soon.

 

it would be great to get it back all fixed so I can put that F1 tint you recommend on it1

 

Cheers

 

Andrew

Edited February 25, 2013 by andrewwx

[oxnard]

Thanks RedLdr

 

I just sent all of your information to my Ford dealer. I am intrigued because we both have (had) the no chirp on lock problem. I like it that your solution fixed the car without a software update. Or maybe the IP problem can be fixed with a software update if something is not being told to go to sleep properly. They have had my car for 28 days now I hope something happens soon.

 

it would be great to get it back all fixed so I can put that F1 tint you recommend on it1

 

Cheers

 

Andrew

28 DAYS!!! OMG.  Hope that they find the problem soon.  

 

***Update***

Just got off phone with Vista Ford Oxnard.  They have been working with Engineers at Ford.  Hope to have software issues fixed by end of the week.  Not holding my breath though.

Need to do something about my rental that they gave me to use. The Chevy Cruze from Hertz sucks and smells like stale cigarettes and beer. 

Edited February 26, 2013 by oxnard

[jmckinley]

Regarding the Stanley Simple Start, it works great for starting my C-Max after towing behind my motorhome.  After two hours towing the the battery is down to 8 volts and nothing works. Usually only takes about 5 minutes charging with Stanley before it will start.

 

The rear outlet in the luggage area, by the way, is the only one that will work to charge when the battery is dead.  

[andrewwx]

I happened to be driving by Vista Ford after work today and I stopped in. They do not think the instrument panel is bad and are pinning their hopes on the software fix that will be out soon. Like Oxnard, I am not holding my breath.

 

They indicated that the software update will address charging. This has me worried because it really seems like a discharging problem to me.

 

At least my rental Corolla does not smell like beer and smoke. I had that rental Cruz the second time I had my car in.

 

Will hope to hear more about the software update.

 

Cheers All

 

Andrew

[salman]

Andrew

 

It is possible that the problem is related to charging rather than discharging. If software or something else is not allowing the step down converter to charge the 12 volt battery sufficiently, then it could result in a dead 12 volt system unable to unlock or start the car, just like a broken alternator in a regular gas engine car would lead to a dead battery. Whether this is the problem or not is something only testing will show. But it seems like a logical possibility. A discharge problem (a circuit that stays open, a short) is a logical possibility, too. It could also be a hardware problem with the converter. 

[Max Power]

Regarding the Stanley Simple Start, it works great for starting my C-Max after towing behind my motorhome.  After two hours towing the the battery is down to 8 volts and nothing works. Usually only takes about 5 minutes charging with Stanley before it will start.

 

The rear outlet in the luggage area, by the way, is the only one that will work to charge when the battery is dead.  

So, I imagine that this would also be the only port that you could put a solar maintenance charger on, for when I leave my car at the airport?

[Sparky]

I do not own a C-MAX yet.  I do have a good understanding of electricity.  In reading this long thread, I see very few know the condition if their 12v battery.  The easiest way to tell is with a digital volt meter (DVM).  Harbor Freight has cheap DVMs for about $5.

 

For most cars, while the engine is running and charging the battery, the voltage will be 14.2 to 14.5 volts.  After the battery has been unused for 6 or more hours, (to allow the surface charge dissipate), the fully charged voltage should read 12.6 to 12.7 volts.  12.2v = 50% charge, 11.5v = dead and the battery will suffer damage, shortened life.

 

The C-Max uses the 12v system to power all lights, blowers, audio systems, etc.  (The air-conditioning compressor, heated seats and power steering may be powered by the high voltage lithium battery.)  Conventional cars use a 100 Amp. (1,400 watt) belt driven alternator to carry the load and maintain a charged battery.  If you are stuck in LA freeway traffic, you may spend considerable time creeping along with the ICE not running.  Thats good, but what provides the 12v power? The answer is a DC-DC converter.  This solid-state device must have the capacity to power all the loads listed above and maintain a full charge on the 12 volt battery. 

 

You may connect a DVM to an old 12v accessory plug, plug it into the dash and measure your cars voltage.  Check voltage with the ICE running, ICE off, system shut down and after a nights rest. 

 

This DVM can also measure DC Amps up to 10A.  Connecting the Digital Amp Meter in series between the negitave battery post and the disconnected ground cable will show even the smallest current draw (.001 amps). I do not recommend doing this as you may loose programming when the cable is disconnected.  This would be a procedure performed by your Ford dealer to locate a source of power draw when the system is shut down.

 

Photos are of my Chevy: I don't have a C-Max.

 

http://pages.suddenlink.net/rwg/images/cmax01.jpg

http://pages.suddenlink.net/rwg/images/cmax02.jpg

http://pages.suddenlink.net/rwg/images/cmax03.jpg

Edited February 27, 2013 by Sparky

[RedLdr1]

Andrew

 

It is possible that the problem is related to charging rather than discharging. If software or something else is not allowing the step down converter to charge the 12 volt battery sufficiently, then it could result in a dead 12 volt system unable to unlock or start the car, just like a broken alternator in a regular gas engine car would lead to a dead battery. Whether this is the problem or not is something only testing will show. But it seems like a logical possibility. A discharge problem (a circuit that stays open, a short) is a logical possibility, too. It could also be a hardware problem with the converter. 

 

In theory if you had a problem charging you should see a Battery warning light while the car was running.   Same as when I broke the alternator drive belt on an older car,  that set off the Battery light since it couldn't recharge... 

Edited February 27, 2013 by RedLdr1

[salman]

RedLdr

 

Yes, one would hope the battery warning light would be triggered by a charging malfunction, e.g. if charging via the step down converter stopped completely. But there could be a less total malfunction, such as software overly slowing or restricting or prematurely shutting down the charging of the 12 volt battery. The use of computers to regulate charging by converter in the C-Max  is different from the use of a belt driven alternator in ordinary gas engine cars.

[Max Power]

I ordered this device for 14 dollars a few days ago and should have it today or tomorrow.  One would think this car already monitors the 12V system power and that I would find that information more useful than staring at my ECO leaves.  

 

http://www.amazon.com/Equus-3721-Battery-Charging-Monitor/dp/B000EVWDU0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1361992944&sr=8-1&keywords=%27Equus+3721+Battery+and+Charging+System+Monitor%27

 

I'm going to use it to do what Sparky has mentioned and also to determine which 12V ports don't turn off.  I'm thinking just the cargo bay one doesn't.

 

So what is the problem here?  Software, underpowered inverter or a battery with too little storage capacity to buffer the times when the inverter isn't keeping up?  The margin between dead and charged are awful slim, which may explain why some other hybrid buyers have upgraded.  I wonder if I can talk my dealer into a better than stock battery?

 

Has anybody seen a solar trickle charger with charge control for a reasonable price?  Should I be concerned they aren't regulated?

 

.  

Edited February 27, 2013 by Max Power

[yark99]

So... they want to give our car back after 9 days, but they haven't found anything. They thought they had a drain, but they weren't used to working on a hybrid. When they figured out how to do that, they didn't have the drain at all. We are back to square 1, except that we have been driving something else for a while.

[PWBarrett]

The C-Max uses the 12v system to power all lights, blowers, audio systems, etc.  (The air-conditioning compressor...

 

Not to quibble, but the compressor runs off the high-voltage battery in the C-Max.

[Tripleoak]

3 month cmax se owner.  Got roadside assist. to start (jump start) car this morning.  Currently at the dealer.

[Max Power]

Voltage was down to 12.2 when I got in the car this morning.  It was at 12.6 last night at shutoff.

 

Based on this, there is some drawdown occurring(maybe as much as 50% of the battery).  I will repeat this test over the next few days.

 

I didn't leave the tester or anything else plugged in.  

 

It appears that the 12V receptacle(between the seatwarmer dials) stays live after you shut the car off.  I wonder if it is supposed too, and will I see any inconsistencies?  If the car shuts things down some days and not others, it may lead to the answer.

[mbedit]

Some news to share. Dearborn got my original vehicle and has an engineer trying to find the root cause. They called and asked to get detailed data on how I was driving it, which I was pleased to share. He commented that they are focusing on the radio to see if it could have issues with it failing to sleep or turn off properly and may be causing many of the drains.

 

I also shared that my replacement is the same model, and that I leave an iPod plugged in and have not had any issues thus far. 

 

I take this as a good sign that Ford really wants to solve the problem, and hopefully, it helps, I told them I'd be more than happy to talk to them anytime.

[RachelnLa]

Thanks for sharing and keep us update, please. This is my first Ford and it is reassuring to me that they stand behind their vehicles.

[andrewwx]

Hey mbedit

 

Thats great that they are working on things. The radio would explain why it never dies at my dealer - they always turn the entertainment off.

 

Max Power - maybe you should run tests with both your entertainment on at shut down and off at shut down.

 

Cheers

 

Andrew

[bymaine]

Interesting, my CMax is still at my  Ford Dealer (in Maine) since last Friday and after my dead battery. After jumping,  my clock was stuck at 1:09, never updated. They ordered a replacement  "APIM" - some type of power module for the radio/clock etc, but then was told by Ford not to install it until further tests are done...(probably on mbedit's Cmax)...I called Ford's customer care last Friday, and they called me on Monday filling me in on the APIM delay. I have the SE with 3500 miles, purchased Dec 2012.  I saw it today at the dealer, all sorts of covers are removed in the cabin, exposing tons of wires and connectors. 

[Max Power]

Hey mbedit

 

Thats great that they are working on things. The radio would explain why it never dies at my dealer - they always turn the entertainment off.

 

Max Power - maybe you should run tests with both your entertainment on at shut down and off at shut down.

 

Cheers

 

Andrew

I have plans to do foot-on-the-brake at shutdown and other tests.  I need to start keeping a log.  I'll try radio off at shutdown tonight and see what happens.

 

I can tell you that I don't think my 15 minute commute is charging the 12V battery that well.  If I didn't have occasional errands to run in the  evening I don't think I would be getting to 100%

[erwhitham]

I really hope that a short commute doesn't account for CMax 12 volt problems. I owned 2 Priuses over 7 years and most of my commutes were 5-10 minutes without any battery issues. So far so good with this car. I do find the radio concern interesting. I ALWAYS leave my radio on and have wondered if that can cause some future problem. Maybe from now on I'll turn it off.

[RachelnLa]

My dad and I talked about this. He dropped my mom off at the dentist and stayed in the car to play with the radio. He turned the car off after mom got out. He commented how long the radio played. If you open the door it kills the battery but staying in the car it stays on for a long time. I noticed this after getting gas for my trip. I turned off the car and played with the nav. I Remember thinking it sure stayed on a long time. I finished setting the destination and opened the door and it cut off

 

I had turned on the interior light after turning the car off because I needed to read the address to set in the nav. I forgot to turn it off when I exited the car. Hubby said it was still on. I went to the car, turned off the interior dome light and walked off. Hubby said it was still on. I went back outside and turned it off again. We waited. Still in. I started the car, turned off the dome light. Once it was off I turned off the car.