Lemon Law & Buy Back Info and Experience

[mbedit]

thanks Salman, I'm sorry to see your having to go through this process, but I think the laws to protect the consumer are better in California (at least thats my experince having lived in California for about 10 years) so I expect you'll be treated right.

 

To answer your question. Yes, in NC even after all the criteria have been met, you still have to notify Ford directly and give them that opportunity. I was a bit confused about it for my case, and when I finally demanded a buy-back, the Ford service representative actually invoked the "we have the right to attempt to repair it one more time after you notify us in writing" clause. This could have been a time consuming mistake on my part, but when I talked to the dealer they informed me that they would simply do an administrative "in-and-out" and sorry to Ford we can't fix-it deal, and I had to get the proper paper work to Ford, which did delay everything by a week. By that time the dealer was firmly on my side and wanted Ford to do the right thing also. So it ended up well, but non-the less, had I done the proper notification directly after the 2nd time, when the 3rd time happened it would have been quicker.

[hybridbear]

hybridbear

 

leaving the build quality problems aside .  . .

 

wow, sounds like a poorly run service department.

 

You say you are in Minneapolis, so there must be several other dealerships you can go to for service. No need to take it where you bought it.

 

I think a conversation with Ford's Customer Care Center would be appropriate. Have them start a case file, describe the issues over the phone, and write up a clear letter outlining the service history. Append copies of the service records. Estimate your costs in a conservative way.  Judgement call as to whether you should ask for something in particular or just ask if they will please make amends to you and let them decide how. I think I'd do the latter.

I am planning to do that. I actually first took the car to the dealership who is closest to our home. They were even worse. They claimed that Ford would not cover any of the trim repairs under warranty. That's why I brought the car back to the dealer where we purchased. I'm waiting for them to finish all the open items we have, once they do that I will try a different dealer the next time we have any issues.

[flatbat]

Hi,

 

I am also pursuing a buyback from Ford.  It's been more than 6 weeks since i notified them that I wanted a buyback.  I had previously notified them that i would if the car kept breaking down.  Ford customer service has been dragging their feet endlessly.  They've missed most of their self imposed deadlines.  I've been patient and friendly, but did ask them if they themselves thought this was a satisfactory level of service.  I got the impression that they are taking it seriously, but are just very  disorganized.  However, yesterday I had a conversation with a mediator from the Maryland attorney general's consumer protection division.  She said that she has seen an  increase in complaints about Ford recently and a clear reluctance on Ford's part to label any car a lemon.  So I am really not sure what to expect when Ford finally gets around to making a decision.  I've had 6 12V battery related breakdowns, so I'm not sure what their argument would be for turning me down.

 

Good luck to everybody.

Edited November 14, 2013 by flatbat

[flatbat]

i guess i was a bit low on detail, but here are my sanitized notes on my Cmax experience so far.  I don't think my problems have been as bad as some of the others here, but I clearly can't rely on this car.  My 15 year old Honda is now back to being my primary car b/c I can't be missing school pickups and the like.  I have no interest in trying to figure out what is wrong or why.  I bought a new car specifically so I wouldn't have to do those things.

 

Jan 18
Breakdown 1: Car inert in driveway - 12V systems not functioning at all. No lights or accessories were left on. Ford roadside assistance jumped the car.  Car behaves normally after jump. Mileage: < 100 mi.

Jan 30
Breakdown 2 / Repair attempt 1: Car inert in parking garage at work - 12V systems not functioning.  Missed pickup for my daughter at school. Parking assistant jumped car and I drove it to the dealership (MD) where the battery failed the quick test but passed the Ford battery test.  Deep cycle recharge of battery. I mentioned the forum stating others were having similar problems, dealer ignorees me. Mileage: 271 mi

Feb 1
Breakdown 3 / Repair attempt 2: Car inert in driveway - 12V systems not functioning. Ford Roadside assistance towed car to dealer on dollies so they could inspect it in the malfunctioning state. Battery was exchanged. Mileage: <278 mi

Feb 6
Breakdown 4 / Repair attempt 3:  Car inert in driveway - 12V systems not functioning.  In the afternoon the car was towed to dealership. Mileage: ~300 mi

Feb 8
email to service director and registered letter to ford copying the attorney general's consumer protection division.  According to MD law a manufacturer is allowed 4 attempts to fix the same problem.  An initial letter should be sent before the 4 attempts are reached. See http://www.oag.state.md.us/consumer/lemon.htm

Dealer contacted Ford.  According to Ford, most these cases are due to user error (12V outlet and USB port supposedly remain hot after shutdown).  I stated that i had nothing plugged in. Dealer kept the car for further unspecified tests

Feb 9
called Ford customer relations center at 800-392-3673 to tell them that the letter was on it’s way and to let them know about the problem.

Feb 11
Dealer admits that there are other cars with the same issue and states that Ford is remotely working on the car to figure out where the drain is coming from.

Feb 13
Over the weekend the car had posted some error codes while parked at dealer.  based on whatever these were, Ford suggested checking all the wiring harnesses.  Technicians found a pinched wire in the audio system which may have been the cause.  Pinched wire was fixed. They will keep it for a couple of more days to make sure that this was indeed what was causing the problems.

 

February
Never received call back from regional Ford office or Ford central, nor did i receive an answer to my first letter.  Did receive call from Consumer Protection Division following up.

May 14
Breakdown 5 / repair attempt 4: Car broken down again.  Jumped and driven to Sheehy.  Now there is a TSB (13-5-1 Reprogram DC/DC converter).

Aug 8
First regularly scheduled service. Performed factory recall 13C02 [R&R Headliner].  Performed factory recall 13B07 [Reprogram PCM].

Oct 3
Breakdown 6 / repair attempt 5:  Car dead in driveway.  Towed to dealer.  They simply replaced battery (i.e. they've given up).  Informed Ford by phone that i will now pursue a buyback.  Customer service rep took my information, gave me a case number and stated that i should receive a call within 2 business days (which would be Monday Oct 7). Informed dealer that I am now pursuing a buyback (in person since he did not return my call).

Oct 8
Still no call from Ford.  Sent registered/certified letter to Ford using template from consumer protection office.

Oct 9
Call from Ford regional sales manager. Tells me they are conducting a "good faith review".

Oct 9-Nov15
Multiple calls with customer service.  They consistently miss their own deadlines.  Every time there is some sort of reason why they haven't finished the review.  Meanwhile I am in contact with the attorney general's office of consumer protection again.
 

[pjurek99]

flatbat, good luck.

 

I will have my car inspected soon. Ford gave up the repairs. The dealer says the part did not arrive. My lemon law attorneyy is telling me to sit tight and wait. "Keeping fingers crossed" and avoiding driving the car that turned out to be unreliable.

[salman]

Flatbat

 

Thank you for posting the details.They can be very helpful for others.  It is a disturbing story.

 

Let us know how things progress.

 

In my case, yesterday was the 10th business day after my buy back case was opened by Ford. I have not received a negative reply. I will call Customer care to check the status today or Monday as time allows.

[wab]

One thing I always do when dealing with ANY customer service dept.

 

When the rep answers with or without giving their name and employee # I always ask for it or ask them to spell it as I document date/time/name.

You can feel them snap to attention :salute: .

[flatbat]

Good news - just this afternoon Ford verbally comitted to repurchase (or replace) the Cmax.  Written confirmation is on the way.  Turns out i was overly pessimistic.  Maybe being pleasant and patient does pay off. 

 

I hope this bodes well for everybody else on the forum.

[wab]

Good news - just this afternoon Ford verbally comitted to repurchase (or replace) the Cmax.  Written confirmation is on the way.  Turns out i was overly pessimistic.  Maybe being pleasant and patient does pay off. 

 

I hope this bodes well for everybody else on the forum.

 

Congratulations :hi5: , have you decided what your going to get?

[flatbat]

Congratulations :hi5: , have you decided what your going to get?

 

Thanks.  I will go with the repurchase.  I don't feel like rolling this particular die again.

[drdiesel1]

Thanks.  I will go with the repurchase.  I don't feel like rolling this particular die again.

:headscratch:

[hybridbear]

Hi,

 

I am also pursuing a buyback from Ford.  It's been more than 6 weeks since i notified them that I wanted a buyback.  I had previously notified them that i would if the car kept breaking down.  Ford customer service has been dragging their feet endlessly.  They've missed most of their self imposed deadlines.  I've been patient and friendly, but did ask them if they themselves thought this was a satisfactory level of service.  I got the impression that they are taking it seriously, but are just very  disorganized.  However, yesterday I had a conversation with a mediator from the Maryland attorney general's consumer protection division.  She said that she has seen an  increase in complaints about Ford recently and a clear reluctance on Ford's part to label any car a lemon.  So I am really not sure what to expect when Ford finally gets around to making a decision.  I've had 6 12V battery related breakdowns, so I'm not sure what their argument would be for turning me down.

 

Good luck to everybody.

Interesting to see that after the TSB you had months of error-free operation. Thanks for sharing the detailed timeline.

 

Good news - just this afternoon Ford verbally comitted to repurchase (or replace) the Cmax.  Written confirmation is on the way.  Turns out i was overly pessimistic.  Maybe being pleasant and patient does pay off. 

 

I hope this bodes well for everybody else on the forum.

Being pleasant and patient almost always pays off with customer service. You get a much better response when you are pleasant to work with even when unhappy.

 

Thanks.  I will go with the repurchase.  I don't feel like rolling this particular die again.

It's sad to hear that your bad experience has ruined the C-Max for you. Have you thought about what to get instead? You shouldn't have these issues if you get another as it seems the recent builds haven't had these battery issues.

[Laurel]

Flatbat I am glad that things have worked out.  I probably wouldn't roll the dice again either.  It is understandable that you want a fresh start with another car.  Best of luck and let us know what you choose.  Lots of nice cars out there.

[flatbat]

Interesting to see that after the TSB you had months of error-free operation. Thanks for sharing the detailed timeline.

 

Being pleasant and patient almost always pays off with customer service. You get a much better response when you are pleasant to work with even when unhappy.

 

It's sad to hear that your bad experience has ruined the C-Max for you. Have you thought about what to get instead? You shouldn't have these issues if you get another as it seems the recent builds haven't had these battery issues.

 

Maybe it was the TSB. Maybe the weather (the trouble free period was essentially the summer).  I know I would be unlikely to have the same problem again, but I just started to wonder about the quality of the software that went into the Cmax and about Fords understanding of the software.  And that could easily lead to other problems as well.  It's a shame, because I really did enjoy driving the car and i think longer term the car will be a winner for Ford.  I'm not really sure what other car to get. Probably some model that's been around for longer.

 

Flatbat I am glad that things have worked out.  I probably wouldn't roll the dice again either.  It is understandable that you want a fresh start with another car.  Best of luck and let us know what you choose.  Lots of nice cars out there.

[hybridbear]

Maybe it was the TSB. Maybe the weather (the trouble free period was essentially the summer).  I know I would be unlikely to have the same problem again, but I just started to wonder about the quality of the software that went into the Cmax and about Fords understanding of the software.  And that could easily lead to other problems as well.  It's a shame, because I really did enjoy driving the car and i think longer term the car will be a winner for Ford.  I'm not really sure what other car to get. Probably some model that's been around for longer.

If you want another hybrid you could look at the new Honda Accord Hybrid or the FFH. There were a handful of FFH owners who reported battery issues but I don't recall any who ended up with their car inoperable like you did.

[salman]

Today is day 15 since my buy back case opened with Ford. Their schedule was to notify me within 10 business days if they do not agree to the buy back or to have a packet of forms delivered to me within 15 business days if they do agree to the buy back. That is their standard schedule that they give owners when a buy back case is initiated.

 

Heard no word from them since the confirmation that they received my letter & packet of documents, so I called Customer Care today. Not one of the better agents today. Luck of the draw. Ultimately I persuaded him to check for an update on their schedule and was told that one or two people or offices at Ford were still pondering my case and that perhaps there would be an answer soon.

 

Also left a phone message for the regional Customer Care manager.

[Laurel]

Salman I hope they get back to you shortly with good news.  Ford seems to be pretty slow with lots of things.  We still are waiting for our cheques in Canada.

[salman]

got a call back from the regional customer care manager. he says the car will be bought back. I should be receiving a letter that will start the buy back process in a few days. It will then be a process of figuring out the buy back price by the formula that is prescribed by State law. Don't know yet how long that will take.

 

sad the CMax has not worked out because except for the crucial reliability issues it is a great car.

[Laurel]

Salman such good news, but I agree sad that it didn't work out because of issues with the car.  Soon you can look forward to another car that is reliable for you. :dance:

[flatbat]

got a call back from the regional customer care manager. he says the car will be bought back. I should be receiving a letter that will start the buy back process in a few days. It will then be a process of figuring out the buy back price by the formula that is prescribed by State law. Don't know yet how long that will take.

 

sad the CMax has not worked out because except for the crucial reliability issues it is a great car.

great to hear that Ford is doing the right thing with your car as well.

[flatbat]

Turned in car and got my check.  Seems this chapter ended.

[Laurel]

Flatbat it is good to hear that you got your check, but sad also as it could have be such a good car for you if the electrical issues had been resolved. Good luck in finding a car that suits your needs.  I would be interested in hearing what you select.  Take care.

[hybridbear]

Turned in car and got my check.  Seems this chapter ended.

got a call back from the regional customer care manager. he says the car will be bought back. I should be receiving a letter that will start the buy back process in a few days. It will then be a process of figuring out the buy back price by the formula that is prescribed by State law. Don't know yet how long that will take.

 

sad the CMax has not worked out because except for the crucial reliability issues it is a great car.

How is the car value calculated for your check?

[salman]

buy back prices are determined in accordance with State law, so you need to check the law for your own State. Easy to do by googling "Lemon Law" and the name of your state.

 

My case is still pending. No fault of Ford's.

 

Here is the formula for California from the State Attorney General's web site:

 

The Song-Beverly Consumer Warranty Act (beginning with Civil Code section 1790) provides protection for consumers who lease or buy new motor vehicles. The law requires that if the manufacturer or its representative in this state, such as an authorized dealer, is unable to service or repair a new motor vehicle to meet the terms of an express written warranty after a reasonable number of repair attempts, the manufacturer is required promptly to replace the vehicle or return the purchase price to the lessee or buyer. The purchase price that must be returned includes the price paid for manufacturer-installed items and transportation but does not include the price paid for nonmanufacturer items installed by the dealer. The lessee or buyer is completely free to choose whether to accept a replacement or a refund. Whatever the choice, the manufacturer is also responsible to pay for sales or use tax; license, registration, and other official fees; and incidental damages that the lessee or buyer may have incurred such as finance charges, repair, towing, and rental car costs.

 

The lessee or buyer may be charged for the use of the vehicle regardless of whether the vehicle is replaced or the purchase price is refunded. The amount that may be charged for use is determined by multiplying the actual price of the new vehicle by a fraction having as its denominator 120,000 and as its numerator the number of miles traveled by the vehicle before it was first brought in for correction of the problem. For example, if the car had traveled 6,000 miles before it was first brought in for correction of the problem, the lessee or buyer could be charged 5% (6,000/120,000 = 5%) of the purchase price for usage.

[hybridbear]

buy back prices are determined in accordance with State law, so you need to check the law for your own State. Easy to do by googling "Lemon Law" and the name of your state.

 

My case is still pending. No fault of Ford's.

 

Here is the formula for California from the State Attorney General's web site:

 

The Song-Beverly Consumer Warranty Act (beginning with Civil Code section 1790) provides protection for consumers who lease or buy new motor vehicles. The law requires that if the manufacturer or its representative in this state, such as an authorized dealer, is unable to service or repair a new motor vehicle to meet the terms of an express written warranty after a reasonable number of repair attempts, the manufacturer is required promptly to replace the vehicle or return the purchase price to the lessee or buyer. The purchase price that must be returned includes the price paid for manufacturer-installed items and transportation but does not include the price paid for nonmanufacturer items installed by the dealer. The lessee or buyer is completely free to choose whether to accept a replacement or a refund. Whatever the choice, the manufacturer is also responsible to pay for sales or use tax; license, registration, and other official fees; and incidental damages that the lessee or buyer may have incurred such as finance charges, repair, towing, and rental car costs.

 

The lessee or buyer may be charged for the use of the vehicle regardless of whether the vehicle is replaced or the purchase price is refunded. The amount that may be charged for use is determined by multiplying the actual price of the new vehicle by a fraction having as its denominator 120,000 and as its numerator the number of miles traveled by the vehicle before it was first brought in for correction of the problem. For example, if the car had traveled 6,000 miles before it was first brought in for correction of the problem, the lessee or buyer could be charged 5% (6,000/120,000 = 5%) of the purchase price for usage.

Thanks for the reply. When I read the MN Lemon Law I somehow missed the section about calculating buyback. MN's pricing is better than the Cali law you quote. MN is $.10/mile or 10% of MSRP, whichever is less. When we traded in our black FFH rather than fight for Lemon Law we got about $6500 less than we paid, $7500 when you could taxes/license fees. With a Lemon Law claim we would have gotten about $2000 less than we paid originally. However, the new car we got came with $2000 in Ford incentives that were only available on the 2013s that we wouldn't have gotten if we had pursued Lemon Law and then gotten a 2014. The 2014s also don't have the Lifetime Summary which I find to be very valuable.

 

The other factor is that in MN you don't pay sales tax on the value of the trade-in. That was another $1500 in savings versus a Lemon Law reimbursement and then buying another car. So ultimately we got about $2000 less than if we had done a Lemon Law claim.

 

While our issues were incredibly frustrating and our car had spent 30 days at the dealer in the first 11 months, some of those days were because the dealer screwed up and broke parts, not because parts were defective from the factory. Overall, we were very frustrated but we didn't have a slam dunk Lemon Law case. Thus, my wife & I decided to just trade-in our FFH for a new one and give up that $2000 rather than take a shot at Lemon Law, potentially get denied, and then have it cost us even more money.

 

So far our new white FFH has been flawless and we're very happy with our decision as we now have a number of extra features that we didn't spend the money for the first time around. We still wish we had push button start, but adding Lake Keep Assist, Adaptive Cruise Control, BLIS, Active Park Assist, etc have been awesome!