Battery dead

[erwhitham]

As an aside, my remote start goes off after 10 minutes. As I enter my car ready to leave, the radio still plays. I haven't checked to see how long it continues after the car shuts off.

[mbedit]

The commute distance was one of the things  discussed. I did have about a 12 mile commute to work with my first one, but since have moved and now have an 18 mile commute. For the radio, Ford asked if I had ever sat and listened to it for a prolonged length of time, (like 15 min or so) while in parked or after turning it off, which I had done 3 or 4 times.

[salman]

Mbedit -

 

Many thanks for keeping us informed. 

 

It sounds like the investigation of your returned car has become the center of Ford's efforts to diagnose the problem. I am struck by the fact that Bymaine's car was about to get a radio related part replaced (which seems tied to the investigation of your car, Mbedit) and then that the part replacement was put on hold by Ford's engineers (which even more clearly seems tied to their work on your car).

 

Meanwhile, the software patch promised about 2 weeks ago has not arrived, and that makes me wonder what the genesis of the software story was at Ford. I wonder if there was some other car we have not heard about that they were pulling apart and thought they found a software bug, or if maybe it was just a story to buy time. 

[Max Power]

Radio on at shutdown, 12.2V the next day.

 

Radio off at shutdown, 12.4V the next day.(this was a longer period even)

 

I'm going to do this a few more times to see if this holds up.  Right now it looks like leaving the radio on when you turn the key off draws more from the battery. 

 

I'm trying not to introduce any bias from powered electronics discharging back into the system. Theoretically this shouldn't effect the perceived voltage but I don't know how well the meter I purchased is designed.

Before I measure at the end of the day, I turn the car off, open and shut the door while staying inside and then lock the doors with the remote.  Then I hang out long enough for the number to stabilize.  I then get out and lock the doors again.

 

In the morning, I get in and lock the doors with the remote, plug in the meter and wait a minute to make sure the reading is stable.

[erwhitham]

Very interesting. Now the question-what is the % of drain( this may be a repeat question)? Also, is a battery drain for leaving the radio on true for all cars? All hybrids? Just ours?

[Max Power]

Radio was on last night, but today it was 12.4.  Maybe on or off doesn't matter and I just wasn't quite charged up the night before I got the 12.2 reading.  

 

A 12.4 volt reading is a half-dead battery.  It was at 12.7(full charge) when the car was shut down.

 

I'll try to check an hour after shutdown to see if it is a slow draw overnight, or if it is happening in the first 10-30 minutes.

[Max Power]

It looks like the draw is happening some time in the first 4 hours, but then it stops or slows substantially.  Park voltage 12.7, 4hrs later12.35, and overnight 12.3 (much colder today, so could be the same reading for the last two).  As an aside, my short commutes are almost completely charging the battery, the reading is  always somewhere north of 12.6

 

My hunch says that something is staying on and then getting timed out and shut down.  The one time my battery died, I remembered retrieving something from the car through the passenger door.(It was shut tightly the next day)  I expected the result of this latest test to draw down the battery more since I was entering the vehicle again, but maybe I didn't do anything to re-activate the relay.  I remember retrieving something from the glove box the day before the car died.  I'm going to try and recreate that scenario and see if it happens again.

[Sparky]

Max Power, thanks for the info you provide.  If you do not see 14.1 - 14.4 volts during your commute, your battery is never fully charged.  After a full charge and shutdown, without any load voltage drops quickly to 13.2V (surface charge) and then over the next 6 hours (+/-) to 12.6 V. 

 

The voltage drop you are seeing in the first 4 hours is dissipation of the surface charge, and not necessarily caused by load. During charging, the surface of the lead plates have a higher voltage, over time the surface charge is absorbed by the plates, or is removed by discharging with a load.   

 

To remove surface charge the battery must be discharged for several minutes. Using headlights with the system off will work. After turning off the lights, you will see a more accurate voltage.

 

Lead-acid batteries are made up of plates of lead and separate plates of lead dioxide, which are submerged into an electrolyte solution of about 35% sulfuric acid and 65% water.  As the battery discharges, the acid of the electrolyte combines with the materials of the plates, changing their surface to lead sulfate. When the battery is recharged, the chemical reaction is reversed. The acid is returned to the solution and lead sulfate reforms into lead dioxide and lead.

 

Continuously operating a battery in a partial state of charge  results in the accumulation of lead sulfate (sulfation) on the plates. Sulfation reduces the performance of the battery and may cause premature battery failure. 

 

I look forward to the results of your testing.

 

 

[Max Power]

14.4 during the commute is always what I see, but the max I get immediately after shutdown is 12.7.  I'm going to calibrate this meter with a better one I have to see if that's completely accurate.  Sounds like my battery is already a little worn down.  It has been completely dead twice from what I can tell.

 

Very informative Sparky, thanks.  

[Bill-N]

14.4 during the commute is always what I see, but the max I get immediately after shutdown is 12.7.  I'm going to calibrate this meter with a better one I have to see if that's completely accurate.  Sounds like my battery is already a little worn down.  It has been completely dead twice from what I can tell.

 

Very informative Sparky, thanks.  

 

14.4 more or less is correct when the battery is being charged by the "alternator." 12.7 is correct otherwise.

[bymaine]

Just got my CMax back from my Ford dealer after last week's dead battery, and there were no parts replaced and nothing repaired for now. I got a copy of the dialogue between the technician and the hotline assistance, and here are some of the highlights:

 

Tech: Vehicle came in for 'no start' condition due to low 12V battery charge. FCDIM clock display is wrong and will not change time. Performed ECC test. No hard faults, tried resetting clock, disconnected battery. No change. 

 

Ford replied: "This concern can be caused by APIM issue. Clock info is received by GPSM, and transferred to the APIM, which sends info to the BCM, which applies the time offset, and then distributes the corrected time to all the modules which require it" "It is recommended to again perform a battery disconnect, touching battery cables together briefly while battery is disconnected, reevaluate the concern. If the concern is still present, then APIM is at fault, recommend replacing APIM"

 

A few days later, the tech reported that fault was still present after following Ford's instructions above, and ordered APIM. While removing parts preparing for new APIM, clock was still reading incorrectly with APIM disconnected. 

Soon after this comment from the tech, Ford replied that "Engineering is currently aware of and investigating a clock inaccuracy issue on GEN1 and GEN2 Sync equipped vehicles. We understand that you were instructed to order and replace the APIM, but at this time we do not feel that replacing the APIM will address this issue. Engineering is currently not recommending any repair attempts for this type of clock inaccuracy at this time. . . . "

 

BTW my car is an SE with no options - the basic 200A package, built in November 2012. I don't know if any of this has anything to do with everyone else's battery problems, but it's interesting. And my car is sterling grey. 

 

I talked with one of the techs at Ford today while I was waiting, and he said he had a CMax SEL battery fail because the owner left the key fab for the 'push-to-start" option in the car overnight, and the module that senses the key fab never went to sleep, since the fab was continuously transmitting..

 

My dealer says they will call me when Ford has a fix for the clock/battery issue. I bought a portable jump charger on the way home. Don't leave home without it. 

[Sparky]

"Clock info is received by GPSM, and transferred to the APIM, which sends info to the BCM, which applies the time offset, and then distributes the corrected time to all the modules which require it" "It is recommended to again perform a battery disconnect, touching battery cables together briefly while battery is disconnected, reevaluate the concern. If the concern is still present, then APIM is at fault, recommend replacing APIM"

 

"BTW my car is an SE with no options - the basic 200A package, built in November 2012. I don't know if any of this has anything to do with everyone else's battery problems, but it's interesting. And my car is sterling grey. "

 

I'll take a guess at one acronym.  GPSM = Global Positioning System Module

 

The C-MAX SE with 200A includes:SYNC W/ MYFORD and SOS POST CRASH ALERT SYS.

 

The post crash alert system transmits the GPS location of the car.  This means the car has a cellular module and GPS.

 

I found this on the Internet, so it must be true:

 

"Through the new MyFord Mobile smartphone app, using the embedded AT&T wireless connection,

Ford Electric vehicle owners will have the ability to send and receive data about

their car providing command and control of vehicle settings while away from it.

 

MyFord Mobile allows drivers to locate the vehicle with GPS, remotely start the

vehicle and remotely lock and unlock the car doors using their smartphone. 

 

This is all done via AT&T's network through a cellular module in the car.

When you buy your Ford EV, a 5-year subscription to the app is included,

after which point you'll be charged a fee."

 

In light of the above assumptions, the cellular module and GPS module must remain on even when the car is off and locked.  (You are able to find the location and unlock the car).  I will have a big grin the first time my wife calls to say she locked the key in the car.  I know you can't, but if anybody can, she will.

 

GPS always knows the time and what time zone you are in. If the C-MAX is in an area of no AT&T coverage, the cellular module will constantly try to contact a tower, using more power.  This cellular/GPS module should not be able to drain the 12v battery in a week or two.  MyFord/Sync is capable of connecting to Wi-Fi, so a Wi-Fi module may be alive when the car is off.

 

 

Edited March 5, 2013 by Sparky

[zhackwyatt]

I'll take a guess at one acronym.  GPSM = Global Positioning System Module

 

The C-MAX SE with 200A includes:SYNC W/ MYFORD and SOS POST CRASH ALERT SYS.

 

The post crash alert system transmits the GPS location of the car.  This means the car has a cellular module and GPS.

 

I found this on the Internet, so it must be true:

 

"Through the new MyFord Mobile smartphone app, using the embedded AT&T wireless connection,

Ford Electric vehicle owners will have the ability to send and receive data about

their car providing command and control of vehicle settings while away from it.

 

MyFord Mobile allows drivers to locate the vehicle with GPS, remotely start the

vehicle and remotely lock and unlock the car doors using their smartphone. 

 

This is all done via AT&T's network through a cellular module in the car.

When you buy your Ford EV, a 5-year subscription to the app is included,

after which point you'll be charged a fee."

 

In light of the above assumptions, the cellular module and GPS module must remain on even when the car is off and locked.  (You are able to find the location and unlock the car).  I will have a big grin the first time my wife calls to say she locked the key in the car.  I know you can't, but if anybody can, she will.

 

GPS always knows the time and what time zone you are in. If the C-MAX is in an area of no AT&T coverage, the cellular module will constantly try to contact a tower, using more power.  This cellular/GPS module should not be able to drain the 12v battery in a week or two.  MyFord/Sync is capable of connecting to Wi-Fi, so a Wi-Fi module may be alive when the car is off.

There is not a modem in the Hybrid, only in the Energi.  They all have GPS receivers though, but for some reason, you are only able to sync your time to the GPS if you have the navigation package installed.

[Max Power]

After running off the surface charge, 12.1V.  Idled it for an hour and it didn't change. 

 

So, is my issue the battery, or did the issue kill battery?  Chicken and egg here.

 

I'll call the dealer to pull and test/replace the battery and then go back to my tests.

 

I don't have the clock issue, maybe I'm "lucky" and just have a dud battery.

[Sparky]

After running off the surface charge, 12.1V.  Idled it for an hour and it didn't change. 

I don't understand: "Idled it for an hour..."  Did you wait an hour and test again? or run the gas engine for an hour? 

 

Leaving the headlights on for 10 minutes with the system off should remove the surface charge and leave the battery at 95% - 12.5v at least.

 

As I understand it, the C-MAX uses a DC to DC converter in place of an alternator to charge the 12v battery.  It appears that the DC to DC converter puts out 14.4 volts as it should.  A laptop computer charger may have an output of 14.5volts at 5 amperes.  Connect this to a C-Max and it might charge the battery in 10 hours, if there was no load. 

 

To check the current output of the DC-DC you need a clamp-on dc amp meter.  Most clamp on meters do not do DC Amps. They are fairly expensive.  You place the clamp around either battery cable and read the amps, charge or discharge.  Here is an example: 

   http://www.sears.com/craftsman-digital-clamp-on-ammeter/p-03482369000P

 

The DC-DC converter should be able to power all lights and accessories and still put 30 amps into a discharged (12.4v) battery.

 

My point is: The DC-DC converter may have the voltage, but not the Amps (current) to fully charge the 12v battery within a reasonable amount of time (15 minutes).  I would hope the DC-DC converter puts out 50Amps (720 watts), to restore the battery to full charge quickly.  The Ford engineers may have said "We have no 12v engine starter, so we do not need a big 12v battery or high capacity DC-DC converter." 

 

Think of electricity as water:   Volts equal water pressure.  You can have pressure with no flow when the valve (switch) is off.

Amperes equal flow as in 5 gallons per minute from a garden hose, or 500 GPM from a fire hydrant. The pressure (voltage) is the same.

Watts or Kilowatts equals gallons you used.  

Edited March 11, 2013 by Sparky

[Max Power]

My point is: The DC-DC converter may have the voltage, but not the Amps (current) to fully charge the 12v battery within a reasonable amount of time (15 minutes).  I would hope the DC-DC converter puts out 50Amps (720 watts), to restore the battery to full charge quickly.  The Ford engineers may have said "We have no 12v engine starter, so we do not need a big 12v battery or high capacity DC-DC converter." 

This is my current suspicion, no pun intended.  Where to get the specs on the converter?

 

I ran the motor for an hour with no accessories on, no increase. Voltage was reading 14.4ish the whole time, at least when I was looking, during that hour. The three hours of driving I did this weekend didn't bring it up either.

Edited March 5, 2013 by Max Power

[Muttonhead]

 

There is a vacuum pump, you might have heard that - I wouldn't loose any sleep over it

 

Heard the same thing today after I parked the car and turned off the engine. What is the vacuum pump used for? Can the cooling fans for the battery be heard outside and under the car? Thanks

[andrewwx]

Sparky, on 04 Mar 2013 - 23:06, said:

 

My point is: The DC-DC converter may have the voltage, but not the Amps (current) to fully charge the 12v battery within a reasonable amount of time (15 minutes).  I would hope the DC-DC converter puts out 50Amps (720 watts), to restore the battery to full charge quickly.  The Ford engineers may have said "We have no 12v engine starter, so we do not need a big 12v battery or high capacity DC-DC converter." 

 

I wonder if this is what Ford is trying to address with the mythical "software update" Not the actual DC-DC convertor but the algorithm that it uses to keep the battery charged.

 

From what I have read it looks like it is very difficult to get a good charge indication from voltage testing (if we had older batteries we could get accurate readings by measuring the specific gravity of the electrolyte in the battery) I think the Tech who diagnosed Rdldr's Cmax had the best plan - turn the car off and search for a hot lead that should be cold.

 

I am very envious of Mbedit's brand new fully functional Cmax - I wish Ford would suck it up and give all of us early adopters with problems cars that work.

 

Cheers

 

Andrew

[dalebunker]

The climate control system runs off the vacuum system.  When you change temperature, move from defrost to floor, to vent etc, all the doors and mechanisms in the climate control are vacuum actuated.  If you "turn off" the climate control, all the door/flaps go to a closed position which consumes the vacuum reserves, which requires the pump to actuate either as the car is shutting down, or the next time you turn the car on.  I have the exact same thing in my truck, it requires the vacuum pump since the diesel engine doesn't create enough vacuum to work the system, as a result there are times when I turn on the key and the pump starts immediately.

[plus 3 golfer]

The climate control system runs off the vacuum system.  When you change temperature, move from defrost to floor, to vent etc, all the doors and mechanisms in the climate control are vacuum actuated.  If you "turn off" the climate control, all the door/flaps go to a closed position which consumes the vacuum reserves, which requires the pump to actuate either as the car is shutting down, or the next time you turn the car on.  I have the exact same thing in my truck, it requires the vacuum pump since the diesel engine doesn't create enough vacuum to work the system, as a result there are times when I turn on the key and the pump starts immediately.

Are your sure the C-Max uses vacuum in the HVAC control system? Do you have a reference? That's an antiquated system in that it requires electrically operated, vacuum solenoids and vacuum lines.  I believe most modern automatic climate control systems in cars have a control unit with position sensors and electric motors to open / close blend doors and to operate flaps to route air flow.

[dalebunker]

Plus 3 Golfer,

 

You may be right about the climate control system.  In my mind, it was the only thing I could think of that would require a vacuum system in the car.

 

However, a little research revealed the following:  seems the brake system uses vacuum boost.  Now talk about "old" technology!! :-) :-)

 

http://media.ford.com/images/10031/2013_CMAXHybrid_Hero.pdf

 

Item number 8..

[plus 3 golfer]

Sometimes old technology is still the best for some applications.  Yes, I looked at Fordparts.com and saw the brake vacuum pump ($370).

 

I remember my 1982 MB 300 SD with plastic vacuum lines running everywhere: door locks, a/c flaps, and I think cruise control (could be mistaken on this one). I owned it for 15 years (275 k miles) and had to be very careful when doing anything in the engine bay.  The lines had a propensity to break if one tried to move them being extremely brittle after about 5-7 years. 

[Sparky]

From what I have read it looks like it is very difficult to get a good charge indication from voltage testing (if we had older batteries we could get accurate readings by measuring the specific gravity of the electrolyte in the battery)

The voltage test is only valid after the surface charge is gone, either by waiting 6 hours after charging or by placing a load on the battery such as headlights for ten minutes. If the battery is discharged the surface charge will be removed more quickly. Any load, even interior lights will affect the voltage reading.

 

The most accurate method to determine the state of charge is by measuring the specific gravity of the electrolyte. This is done by removing a cell cap and withdrawing some solution with a hydrometer. 

http://www.amazon.com/E-Z-Red-S101-Battery-Hydrometer/dp/B000JFHMRU/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1362618805&sr=1-1&keywords=E-Z+Red+S101

 

Percentage Specific Voltage

of Charge   Gravity

100 -------- 1.277 -- 12.73

90 ---------- 1.258 -- 12.62

80 ---------- 1.238 -- 12.50

70 ---------- 1.217 -- 12.37

60 ---------- 1.195 -- 12.24

50 ---------- 1.172 -- 12.10

40 ---------- 1.148 -- 11.96

30 ---------- 1.124 -- 11.81

20 ---------- 1.098 -- 11.66

10 ---------- 1.073 -- 11.51

 

The removable cell cap has a cross allowing it to be removed with a coin. A cap is visible in the picture below. The other caps are under the label.

The battery electrolyte contains sulfuric acid. A drop will eat a hole in fabric or paint. Use rubber gloves and eye protection. Acid can be neutralized with a solution of baking soda dissolved in water.

 

The C-MAX battery, BXT-67R, has a sight glass (battery eye) on the top center of the battery. Observing a green ball in the sight glass indicates a charged battery. A red ball indicates discharged.

 

http://pages.suddenl...ages/cmax04.jpg

http://pages.suddenl...ages/cmax05.jpg

http://pages.suddenl...ages/cmax06.jpg

 

If after driving, you suspect your battery is low, I suggest charging it with a good microprocessor controlled battery charger. Take note of how long it takes to complete the charge. I have had good results with the Schumacher xcs15. This charger has a display of percentage of charge while connected. A battery left in any state of discharge, even for a few hours, will begin to sulphate and capacity will be lost. The battery's lifetime will be months rather than years.

 

After reading many accounts of dead batteries in both C-MAX and Fusions, It is my humble opinion that the batteries are not being fully charged by the DC-DC converter. I think some hybrids are driving around with half discharged batteries. Even when the car is shutdown there is the constant load of the cellular / GPS / MFM modules, admittedly small and necessary, but over time will discharge the battery. The C-Max Battery appears to have less than half the reserve capacity of a similar non-hybrid. The battery dimensions are 9 1⁄8 x 6 15⁄16 x 6 15⁄16. It does not appear that a higher capacity battery would fit in the space provided. I do feel the battery is adequate provided it remains fully charged.

 

Excellent primer on battery maintenance:  http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/hweb4.pdf

Edited March 7, 2013 by Sparky

[andrewwx]

Sad news all:

 

Vista Ford just called me and read to me what the engineers in Dearborn are telling people via the Oasis system. "Some Cmax owners may experience battery discharge problems if they drive short distances with high electrical loads (such as having a laptop plugged in or using the climate control system) We are aware of the problem but do not have a solution as of yet"

 

This is very bothersome because Ford is blaming us for driving the car in a certain way. It is like if my iPhone would not dial anyone in the 310 area code but worked for all other area codes and Apple came back and said "its your fault for trying to use your phone to call that area code"

 

What is doubly annoying is that I drove my Cmax with nothing plugged into any ports and with the climate control off - so the engineers are actually wrong in their assessment of the problem.

 

This is the fourth time my Cmax has been in for this problem and they had my car for the past 36 days. They have had the car for a total of 52 days.

 

I am going to try to work with Ford Customer Service and Vista Ford to get my money back - I have had enough. Hopefully they treat me well - if not its nice that my girlfriend works at a law office.

 

I sincerely hope that everybody here has better luck than I.

 

Cheers

 

Andrew

[RedLdr1]

Just another data point about the BXT67R battery...  It is not new and has been used by Ford in several compact and mid-size vehicles since MY2010 which means calendar year 2009.   Here is a link to the application list:  FordParts then click on the Buyers Guide "button" to see the application chart listed below....

 

Years Make Model Engine Qty per Vehicle

2013 Ford C-Max All Engines (1) 1

2012-2013 Ford Focus All Engines 1

2010-2013 Ford Fusion All Engines (1) 1

2010-2013 Lincoln MKZ All Engines (1) 1

2010-2011 Mercury Milan All Engines (1) 1

 

Another "interesting" thing is I do not see nearly as many "Dead Battery" post on the Fusion forums...

Edited March 7, 2013 by RedLdr1