Battery dead

[barrier2entry]

Please keep us posted on your experience with the buy back. I believe yours will be the 4th buy back reported here.

 

Well, it took a while, but Ford has agreed to repurchase my vehicle.  I got the official notification last week.  So far, however, I haven't been able to get any information from Ford or my dealer about how this is supposed to proceed.  The letter came without any information about who (at Ford) to contact with questions, etc. exept to tell me to contact the dealer.  The dealer doesn't know what to do and hasn't returned my calls since last week.  The Ford Customer Relationship Center referred me to the RAV (Re-Acquired Vehicle) department, but the "person handling my case" is out of the office "today".  I don't expect instant results, but I'd like someone to, at least, tell me what the process is supposed to be. *sigh*

 

This additional frustration sure doesn't make me feel good about the thought of buying a new Ford vehicle to replace the C-Max.

[Don O.]

Update. I did received 2 'recall' notices from Ford.

Recall: 13B07 & 13C02. One was to re-program the transmission. The other to reinforce the headliner.

I have had both done by my local dealer. Took about 3 hours in total to do both of them.

Local dealer has a courtesy vehicle & took me home & back. Clearly both under warranty.

I don't believe there had been any safety or other problems that required these...

[salsaguy]

barrier, why not get another cmax to replace the lemon/fluke defective one you got? as it seems these are not that common, esp on the brand new ones...

[BobJustBob]

**Sigh**.  Well, I had my third dead battery today (8/12).  My previous two were in March (3/20 and 3/25).  I had hoped that the application of TSB 13-5-1 had solved this problem for good.  I had the 13B07 upgrade installed on 8/1; now, I am left wondering if that somehow caused the battery problem to reemerge.

 

Here's the really strange part.  I got my brother to jump-start my car this morning when I discovered the dead battery.  I was then able to drive to work and to drive home at the end of the workday.  When I got home, I hitched up a battery "trickle-charger" (a DelTran "Battery Tender Plus") to ensure my battery got fully charged.  Well, it took only 40 minutes for the light on the charger to turn steady green, indicating the battery was completely charged.  My brother, who is an engineer, states that it is unlikely my 9 mi commute and a 40-minute charge would fully charge a completely discharged battery.  So, what the heck is really going on?  What a mess!

[TorontoEnergi]

Just picked up a C-Max Energi and after 1 week I found it had no power - no lights, door wouldn't open, wouldn't start.  They told me that I left the lights in the on always position and that was the likely reason.  I hope that is all it was.  Based on what I was reading here, it does sounds like it should have shut down on its own even in that case but perhaps not.

[Temp61]

to Toronto Energi

 

From experience here...... you have to leave the light switch in either the off or auto position.   If the switch is left in one of the middle two positions, it will cause a dead battery because the yellow side marker lights will stay on until the small 12v battery is dead.  

 

The only warning sound you get is the same chime sound that you get when you turn the key to start the car, so it's real easy to miss.  The chime starts when you open the door to get out and quits when the doors is shut so it might only be 3 seconds if you are quick getting out.  Poor logic on Ford's part, they need an automatic timeout after 15 minutes or so.  There are enough computers on board to send the car to the moon so should be room on one of them to turn lights off.

 

from Ohio

[mbedit]

Yes, when in "Auto" position, the lights should shut off automatically.

 

Well, we had a TON of rain, and the roads were flooded, and I was out driving through it, it really got up under the carriage, and by the time I got home, my C-MAX was acting odd. My friend was along and was screwing with the iPod connected to sync and managed to get it so I had to disconnect and reset it, but when I parked it home, and went to lock it, it acted funny. I checked it an hour later, and the key FOB didnt seem to want to unlock it, I had to manually unlock it, but the car started, and drove it to the grocery store and back, and again when I went to lock it upon returning home, it didn't beep the  way it normally does. 

 

Sunday morning and it wouldn't unlock. I thought (hoped) it was just a dead battery in the FOB and tried the other one with no luck. Got into the car and it was dead.

 

Got the charger out I bought and it started right up using that.

 

I'm concerned now that a wiring harness got wet that caused the issue.

 

I need to take it in to get the recalls done, I'll report this issue too and ask that they check the wiring harnesses to see if one got moisture in it.

[Laurel]

Oh dear.  I was hoping this would never happen to you again.  Was the water that you drove through quite deep, or just run of the mill heavy rain wash up?  Good luck.

[salman]

Mbedit

 

Sorry to hear this. Please let us know what happens.

[mbedit]

Laurel, It was really deep, technically the road was flooded... maybe i'm too optimistic, but I'm hoping whatever happened it was a one shot. I used my duralast charger I bought and the good news is that worked like a charm.

 

I only had to jump it the once... Also, when the FOB didn't work, I know I tried the spare, just to confirm it wasn't a dead battery and it wasn't working. Monday morning, even though the FOB didn't work, it started right up, no fuss, and I drove it all day w/o any issues, when I got home, I contemplated putting the charger back on it to see if more juice would fix the FOB... but before I did that, I tried the both of them again, and the spare worked!  So then I tried changing the battery (again) on the one that didn't work, and that one worked! Then I stuck the battery form the one that didn't work into the spare... and that one worked! So... now I'm a bit confused... or maybe my C-Max managed to get its charge fully back over Monday?

 

No Matter, it seemed to be working again just fine. When I take it in Wed to have the recall's done I'll have them Check the battery and apply the TSB that charges up the battery better. Even though the battery, died, it *seems* to recovered better than the other one I had, and I'll have to see if it continues. They can't really dig into wiring harnesses if its working fine.

[Laurel]

I bet your dealership will gasp when you tell them about the dead battery.  Thanks for the update.

[salman]

Mbedit

 

Your story and another person's episode a few comments back makes me think back to one of my theories about the 12 Volt problems from way back:

 

Rather than the battery being dead, something triggers a relay and shuts it down, but does so in such a way that a jump from a charger reopens the relay. The hypothesis is that the relay is shut kind of like a circuit breaker, and then flipped back open by the charger. Put slightly differently, maybe a relay or computer component is hyper-sensitive to the voltage level in the battery, so that a level that would run accessories in most cars is insufficient to do anything in a C-Max.

 

This would explain the curious phenomena of batteries recharging much more quickly than one would expect if they were truly discharged. Almost all the episodes reported here tell us that once jumped the car can be driven a short distance and the dead battery episode does cannot get repeated in the shop. The poster just upthread said his trickle charger completed a re-charge in a very short amount of time, much shorter than one would expect for a depleted battery - hence the suspicion that the battery was not deeply depleted.

 

This theory could also help explain what seems to be multiple causes for our episodes: anything that reduces the battery voltage modestly (or moderately) could be enough to trigger a shutdown, even though the voltage reduction does not appear severe enough to show up as a traditionally dead depleted battery requiring a long recharge. Looked at this way, the core problem is the hyper-sensitive relay ( or other component) and the trigger events come in the form of anything that moderately depletes the battery (water in a connector, a phone link that stays on, etc).

[PJFW8]

Salman

 

Interesting!   Ford must know all of this.  I find it irritating that dealers still blame the customer for a dead battery by suggesting they left  a door ajar, an accessory or the ignition on.  My last 2 Fords had keyless ignition and auto headlights.  Never a dead battery!  Oddly, my 2010 Fusion hybrid 12 volt lasted only 10 months before failure.  My 2007 Lexus 400h (hybrid) needed a jump once in 3 years.  These are the only battery issues I experienced in 40 plus years of driving! 

[BobJustBob]

salman,

 

I believe you may be onto something.  My brother, who is a mechanical engineer, said something similar.  It's as if the C-Max is hypersensitive to just the slightest deviation from full charge.

[salman]

BobJustBob

 

Yes, it was your post that reminded me of this theory, which I think I and others discussed here a few months ago.

 

PJFW8

 

I have no way to know what Ford's engineers have been testing. However, maybe Mbedit can ask them. He has had some direct contact from the engineers after his buyback a few months ago. The engineers asked him questions about his driving habits, etc, and if I recall correctly they told him about some of the fixes they were then preparing.

[GSMacLean]

To begin with, the battery is much smaller than you would find in a normal car. It doesn't need the massive current a normal car needs to crank the engine, so it doesn't need to be as physically large, or have anywhere near the capacity. Its job is primarily as a small reserve and buffer. As soon as the car is turned on, it starts charging the 12V battery from the HV battery, through the DC-DC converter. Essentially, the HV battery is running all the 12 volt accessories (radio, Sync, headlights, seat heat, etc), and a small bit more to keep the 12 volt battery charged.

 

When the car is first turned on, it uses power from the 12 volt battery to actuate relays that energize circuitry that is run from the HV battery. The main one of these is the DC-DC converter that provides 12 volt power to run accessories and charge the 12 volt battery.

 

Because the capacity of the 12 volt battery is quite small, it can easily be run down by anything being left on - headlights (i.e. user error) or Sync (software error). It won't run your headlights for hours, like a normal car does - it simply doesn't have that reserve capacity. Eventually, the voltage drops below what the computers require. You can't start the car, because the computers aren't running.

 

Connecting a "jump" pack provides the (relatively small) amount of power to allow the computers to start up. This in turn allows you to "start" the car, wherein the computers close the relays to energize the DC-DC converter, which allows the HV battery to begin charging the 12 volt battery.

 

Because the 12 volt battery has a fairly small capacity, it charges relatively quickly - it doesn't take hours to charge from dead, like a regular car battery.

[PJFW8]

I agree 100%  That being said the system is not working correctly.  This is a problem which kills reliability statistics and strands people...or at a minimum is a great inconvenience.  This is my 3rd hybrid (Fusion and Lexus).  This is neither normal nor acceptable.

To begin with, the battery is much smaller than you would find in a normal car. It doesn't need the massive current a normal car needs to crank the engine, so it doesn't need to be as physically large, or have anywhere near the capacity. Its job is primarily as a small reserve and buffer. As soon as the car is turned on, it starts charging the 12V battery from the HV battery, through the DC-DC converter. Essentially, the HV battery is running all the 12 volt accessories (radio, Sync, headlights, seat heat, etc), and a small bit more to keep the 12 volt battery charged.

 

When the car is first turned on, it uses power from the 12 volt battery to actuate relays that energize circuitry that is run from the HV battery. The main one of these is the DC-DC converter that provides 12 volt power to run accessories and charge the 12 volt battery.

 

Because the capacity of the 12 volt battery is quite small, it can easily be run down by anything being left on - headlights (i.e. user error) or Sync (software error). It won't run your headlights for hours, like a normal car does - it simply doesn't have that reserve capacity. Eventually, the voltage drops below what the computers require. You can't start the car, because the computers aren't running.

 

Connecting a "jump" pack provides the (relatively small) amount of power to allow the computers to start up. This in turn allows you to "start" the car, wherein the computers close the relays to energize the DC-DC converter, which allows the HV battery to begin charging the 12 volt battery.

 

Because the 12 volt battery has a fairly small capacity, it charges relatively quickly - it doesn't take hours to charge from dead, like a regular car battery.

[salman]

GSMacLean

 

Yes, the smaller size of the CMax battery was one of this forum's earliest subjects of concentration, for more or less the reasons you lay out.

[mbedit]

Salman, I got the jist that Ford has been focusing mostly on software/firmware issues as the cause. The last time they called they seemed to be focusing on the entertainment module and specifically the way the bluetooth was syncing or dropping the signal.

 

Essentially it sounds like (and I'm not expert) that if anyone of the modules fails to sleep properly, it can cause drain on the battery, and so thats what I understood to have been Fords focus.

 

The dealer did a draw test on my battery, and even though the vehicle seemed to be working they said it came back as failed, and they replaced it. They are keeping it an extra day because the headliner part was backordered and was supposed to be in tomorrow, so they are going to do that fix tomorrow.

 

I'll find out what else they investigated, but due to my past issue, they seem to be taking it seriously, and trying to make sure they can apply any TSB or run every test they know of.

[salman]

Mbedit

 

If you have the opportunity again, would you consider asking whether Ford engineers have looked for a hyper-sensitive relay/circuit/swtich that shuts down when there is a moderate decline in battery voltage (i.e., with less depletion of the battery than one would expect necessary to cause a problem)?

 

So far it does seem that Ford has concentrated on finding power drains, whether from software that does not shut down or from short-circuits caused by water in electrical connectors and pinched wires. Earlier they also worked on the software that regulates battery charging.

[mbedit]

will do. Its kinda of a "don't call us we'll call you thing"

[bam48]

Well, a little more than a month ago they performed a TSB update for the SYNC on our DEAD CMAX, they said that would do the trick - HAHAHAHAHAHA!

It was towed for the 4th time this morning to our dealership! 

Too bad  :sad:

[rfruth]

Would a trickle charger like this (see link) $ 26..99 model from Sears be good enough to get you going (fast, 5 or 10 minutes) can hassle with the dealer later for a fix (new battery & whatever else) ((don't want to be stuck, would this get me going ?)) http://www.sears.com/diehard-battery-charger-maintainer/p-02871219000P?sid=IDx01192011x000001&kpid=02871219000&kispla=02871219000P

[bam48]

This is my advice and personal opinion. The CMax only drains over night, so you would only be stuck in the morning (I know we've been stuck with work & school situations too).  You should NOT charge your vehicle on your own or let the towing service charge your car!!  Then the dealership and Ford Motor Company have no way to track what is gong on and the situation will not be corrected.  Plus, you will have no recourse because there will be no record of a dead battery.  Please do NOT self charge your batteries, let the dealership take care of the situation, it's the only way they can fix the problem!!

 

The other question I have for everyone with the new CMax, is why isn't your dealership giving you a rental when your car is dead? It's a brand new vehicle, under warranty.  We have received a rental every time and with one exception, they have always delivered it to our house.

 

 

Would a trickle charger like this (see link) $ 26..99 model from Sears be good enough to get you going (fast, 5 or 10 minutes) can hassle with the dealer later for a fix (new battery & whatever else) ((don't want to be stuck, would this get me going ?)) http://www.sears.com/diehard-battery-charger-maintainer/p-02871219000P?sid=IDx01192011x000001&kpid=02871219000&kispla=02871219000P

 

[Bill-N]

Would a trickle charger like this (see link) $ 26..99 model from Sears be good enough to get you going (fast, 5 or 10 minutes) can hassle with the dealer later for a fix (new battery & whatever else) ((don't want to be stuck, would this get me going ?)) http://www.sears.com/diehard-battery-charger-maintainer/p-02871219000P?sid=IDx01192011x000001&kpid=02871219000&kispla=02871219000P

 

I should think it would be fine.  I also think the dealer should have first crack at the problem where possible.