Battery dead

[FordService]

*Sigh*  The 13B12 update failed to fix the problem for me.  I had the 13B12 update applied on 24 Dec 13; I suffered my fifth dead battery this past Tuesday, 21 Jan 14.  I am beyond frustrated at this point--it is obvious that the Ford engineers cannot figure out the source of this problem.  It is a shame, too, because I really like my C-Max otherwise.

 

BobJustBob,

 

Let me look into this for you. PM me your name, phone number, VIN, mileage, and dealer info, and I'll see how I can help.

 

... Also, Ford has "escalated" my request for an informed answer to my simple (IMO) question. "Is the 13B12 recall the same as TSB 13-7-10 and if not, what is different?" 

 

I will share any useful information I obtain.

 

Pad,

 

Did you get a case number related to your escalation? If so, PM it to me, and I'll take a look at its status for you.

 

Ashley

[drdiesel1]

Thanks for the advice drdiesel1.

 

All I have is a copy of the invoice showing that they performed the procedure called for by TSB 13-7-10. I will ask for a detailed record of the work done.

 

In the meantime, the Service Manager has agreed to put in a new battery. Given that the original battery lasted a year, I am hoping this will be at the very least a stopgap measure while Ford searches for a permanent fix.

 

Also, Ford has "escalated" my request for an informed answer to my simple (IMO) question. "Is the 13B12 recall the same as TSB 13-7-10 and if not, what is different?" 

 

I will share any useful information I obtain.

Make sure the replacement battery is properly charged. Stock batteries sit on a shelf and will be undercharged if it's not charged with

the proper battery charger. You need to make sure it's done and not just lip service. Having a battery with a low SOC isn't good for it

and it will shorten the lifespan. This is why, I have a battery charger with a micro processor. I charge mine every few months to keep it healthy.

Edited January 28, 2014 by drdiesel1

[pad]

drdiesel1,

 

Will do.

 

I also use a "smart" battery charger. In fact, it is on right now in maintenance mode.  (Presently -18°F) Will also plug in block heater an hour or two before I leave.

 

Thanks

[Zathrus]

Well, add me to the list of owners who encountered a dead battery/no start . First occurrence for me. Purchased base SE car in August 2013, and it has about 6K miles. Was tempted to jump car, but called Ford Roadside Assistance to have it towed to local dealer.

 

The doors did not open with remote, but when I opened with key and went inside, I heard a motorized air diverter vent under front dash moving for about 5 seconds, then stop. It would rest for about 5 seconds, then repeat. It did this several times. Is this normal?  Perhaps this motor was running all day draining the battery?

 

When I inserted key to try start, notice faint flicker of dash light by shifter, and no other lights or relay click.

[Zathrus]

re-posted from TSB 13-5-1 thread:

 

 

Bad news: dead battery 3 days after service.

 

Battery dead this morning. New symptoms: I opened the drivers door with my key. Inside the car I could hear two noises. From the front passenger side there was a repetitive clicking sound coming from the dashboard or shifter/storage console. From the rear of the car there was a repetitive low thumping sound, like a small electric motoring repeatedly trying to operate to open a door or hatch or something like that. All the doors and the rear hatch were locked.

 

My recent service included TSB 12-11-8, 13-4-7, and 13-5-1, and also two more items. The key fobs were reprogrammed to prevent the global open function for the windows from operating on their own (this had happened 4 times). And due to a warning light coming for the passive restraint system the RCM Module was replaced and then because that did not solve the problem they replaced the left front impact sensor and then because that did not solve the problem they removed the passenger seat to inspect the wiring and found "three high resistance circuit causing fault" and repaired those circuits.

 

The new dead battery problem could possibly stem from something that happened with wiring under the passenger seat. 

 

I am concerned that the battery could be damaged from being depleted and also that the switch and small electric motor being repeatedly activated could be damaged, too.

 

This is my second dead battery episode. The first was in december, just a few days after buying the car. 

 

My car will be towed to the dealer today or tomorrow, depending on my schedule.

 

I will let you know what happens.

 

Salman...looks like you had the same noises coming from dash that I had when my battery drained (see above post).  What was the outcome in your issue...did they find anything under dash causing battery drain?  Thanks.

[drdiesel1]

 

Well, add me to the list of owners who encountered a dead battery/no start . First occurrence for me. Purchased base SE car in August 2013, and it has about 6K miles. Was tempted to jump car, but called Ford Roadside Assistance to have it towed to local dealer.

 

The doors did not open with remote, but when I opened with key and went inside, I heard a motorized air diverter vent under front dash moving for about 5 seconds, then stop. It would rest for about 5 seconds, then repeat. It did this several times. Is this normal?  Perhaps this motor was running all day draining the battery?

 

When I inserted key to try start, notice faint flicker of dash light by shifter, and no other lights or relay click.

 

You should tell your dealer about this. It might help them solve the problem.

Edited January 29, 2014 by drdiesel1

[FordService]

 

Well, add me to the list of owners who encountered a dead battery/no start . First occurrence for me. Purchased base SE car in August 2013, and it has about 6K miles. Was tempted to jump car, but called Ford Roadside Assistance to have it towed to local dealer. ...

 

 

Zathrus,

 

I responded to your PM. Check it out. :)

 

Ashley

[Zathrus]

Jump starts are a temporary band-aid. Without properly CHARGING the battery you'll have the same problem, again.

Having an undercharged battery will also shorten it's life span.  I use a micro processor battery charger that's fool proof.

I've been using this charger for the last 2 or so years. My wife's battery lasted 8 yrs. to the month in her car.  I do a 6 mo. service charge on all my vehicles to promote battery health and longer life.  I use it on my motorcycles too.  I've been using on my C-Max.

 

The day after I bought my car, I found the battery at a 50% state of charge.  I charged it up and found out my USB drive was being pinged all the time and my iPod was being charged all the time too. I unplugged them both and my battery problems have stopped. I recommend you spend the money on a charger and not a jumper. The charger will condition your battery as well as keeping it charged.  A jumper will only work to start a dead battery and nothing else. If you check and charge the battery on a regular basis until a fix is found, you'll never have a dead battery. Even if you did, the charger will enable you to get enough power to start the car.

 

Here's the one, I use and recommend   http://www.amazon.com/Schumacher-SSC-1500A-SpeedCharge-Charger-Battery/dp/B000H961YI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1382038990&sr=8-1&keywords=ship+n+shore+speed+charge+ssc-1500a

 

drdiesel1,

 

I have similar Schumacher battery charger to the one you have referred to above, but mine is model SC-1200A. Can I connect charger to battery access terminals under front hood (with battery still connected in the back)?  Or do I need to disconnect 12V-battery in the back and attach charger directly to disconnected battery terminals?  Thanks.

Edited February 3, 2014 by Zathrus

[JAZ]

Since my Max often sits for a week or more undriven in winter, I've been using an ancient analog charger that I found cleaning out the basement.  Hook it up to the underhood terminals and charge it up.

[Tdefny]

That charger might cook your battery if it is to strong. Take a look at a microprocessor controlled charger. They monitor battery condition and provide only what the battery needs.

 

I bought this one: http://www.amazon.com/CTEK-93-56-864-Black-Battery-Charger/dp/B006G14FK8/ref=cm_cr_pr_pb_t to take care of some other batteries that I have and it has performed well so far. I also have one from Shumacher that I like for a faster charge, but there are lots of good offerings to choose from.

[JAZ]

Thanks for the warning, Tdefny, but ancient as it is, the charger has overcharge protection.  As you caution, that protection is essential.

[drdiesel1]

drdiesel1,

 

I have similar Schumacher battery charger to the one you have referred to above, but mine is model SC-1200A. Can I connect charger to battery access terminals under front hood (with battery still connected in the back)?  Or do I need to disconnect 12V-battery in the back and attach charger directly to disconnected battery terminals?  Thanks.

Yes, you can use the power and ground studs in the engine compartment to charge the battery.  It's the preferred method because

it's easy to access and won't require you to dig into the battery storage compartment.

[Alex Sams]

This is probably a redundant question, but has anyone checked the 12v battery terminals? This might have happened to my wife, but I'm having trouble getting answers from her as to whether the lights were shut off or not. There's some confusion there on her part because "automatic" in the Windstar was to the left of Off, but on the C-max it's to the right of On. I can tell you that the parking lights will not shut off via the battery saver timer. That's probably intentional. The first time it happened, she got a jump from Ford, but it wasn't until she came home that I saw that she left the parking lights on- because those were still on. 

 

If it happens again, we'll take it up with FCS and our Ford dealer. I might have to drive the car for a week to see if it does it to me. 

 

I'd like to know if a larger capacity battery is available. 390cca might seem great to an engineer, but this old country boy will shove the largest cca battery possible into his vehicles. Many moons ago I had a little Honda station wagon that locked up a water pump, and it drove for 2 days (during the day, no headlights) on a 900 cca battery that I'd shoe-horned in to it. Manufacturers just install minimum requirements. I hope that the C-max doesn't have an oddly shaped battery that nobody is going to make a larger capacity replacement for. 

Edited February 5, 2014 by Alex Sams

[plus 3 golfer]

CCA may not be the appropriate rating I'd look for in determining battery capacity for a car not having a conventional starter as there is likely not the same proportional relationship between CCA and more appropriate ratings between different battery manufacturers.  IMO, Amp hours (Ah) or Reserve Capacity (RC) would seem to be a better measure if one wants to buy a battery that may extend the time until the battery is discharged to the point that the voltage is no longer sufficient to power the C-Max electronics to start the car via the HVB and MG1.

 

I'd find a battery with the highest Ah or RC rating although many times manufacturers may not supply both ratings.  Here's an Interstate battery with 590 CCA and a RC (at 25 A draw) of  95 minutes.  The Ford C-Max BXT-67R has a RC rating of 65 minutes.  Sears Diehard group 36R battery shows 650 CCA and 130 RC (although it may be slightly longer and not fit).

[Bill-N]

It isn't clear, to me at least, as to which battery group/s will physically fit the C-Max.  The original Ford battery is a group 67R, yet there are other references to a group 96R as being appropriate.

 

For those interested, here's good info as to actual dimensions, CCA, reserve capacity, etc.:     http://www.batteryplex.com/sheets/BCI_21170_Combined_with_Cover.pdf

Edited February 5, 2014 by Bill-N

[plus 3 golfer]

After looking at the 12V battery compartment again (I looked at it long time ago), there does not appear to be sufficient space (especially lengthwise) to put in a much larger battery as there are auxiliary plates that attach to the positive and negative terminals which will likely interfere and also not a lot of space at the bottom of the battery tray for a much larger battery including hold the hold down.  We may be stuck with the BXT-67R size and no alternatives at this time.  If you look at the link, you will see that the 96R size with a 95 RC is about 0.7 inches longer than the 67R and may not fit.

 

Edit: if I look at the link that Bill-N posted, it appears that a 96R battery should fit in a C-Max.  I guess someone needs to try it out. :)

Edited February 5, 2014 by Plus 3 Golfer

[Alex Sams]

Well, if anyone really wanted to spend the money- this should do the ticket, and it's smaller so some fabbing might be in order. That's quite a lot of power, and 2x as expensive as a traditional battery. Willitwork?

 

http://www.powerstridebattery.com/car-batteries-light-truck-batteries-van-batteries/bci-group-67r-odyssey-pc1200mjt-battery

 

[plus 3 golfer]

Well, if anyone really wanted to spend the money- this should do the ticket, and it's smaller so some fabbing might be in order. That's quite a lot of power, and 2x as expensive as a traditional battery. Willitwork?

 

http://www.powerstridebattery.com/car-batteries-light-truck-batteries-van-batteries/bci-group-67r-odyssey-pc1200mjt-battery

 

One doesn't need the cranking amps of this Odyssey battery in the C-Max because engine cranking is not supplied by the 12 V battery in the C-Max.  One needs reserve capacity (RC) to handle parasitic loads on the battery when the HVB is not charging the 12 V battery in the C-Max.  The Odyssey RC is only 78 minutes shown below under the specs (not much better than the stock C-Max battery of 65 minutes).  This Odyssey is a perfect example of a battery with very, very high CCA and a relatively low RC.  The Ah rating of  44 for the Odyssey is rather low.  The RC of the Interstate 96R battery that I linked to above is 95 minutes.  

 

Again, IMO the cranking amps of the 12 V battery in the C-Max is not the issue.  It's that a parasitic load is draining the C-Max 12 V battery after shutdown.  If there was normal "sleep" mode current draw on the 12 V C-Max battery, the battery voltage would not be dropping to low 12 V or lower as some who have had the dead battery issue have observed.  IMO, the Interstate battery or a Ford BXT-96R is a much better choice than the Odyssey battery for the C-Max.  The question still remains what batteries will fit in the C-Max beside the stock BXT-67R. 

 

PC1200MJT Specs:

• 1200 cranking amps for 5 seconds
• 1090 cranking amps for 10 seconds
• 900 cranking amps for 20 seconds
• Short circuit current over 2600A
• 44 amp hours
• 78 minute reserve capacity with 25amp load
• SAE Brass Automotive Terminals
• Metal jacket
• Length 7.87"
• Width 6.66"
• Height 6.80"
• Weighs 38 lbs

[BullDurham]

I had this work done on December 13.  Prior to that time, I had not had a battery failure.  However the dealership told me that the battery was almost completely drained, and they replaced it.  Yesterday, I went out and found the battery completely dead.  I could not open the card with the key fob and nothing was working.  I called Ford Roadside Assistance and they sent someone who tried to jump it.  That caused the dashboard lights to come on, but the car would not crank.  (Battery warning light was illuminated on the dash, as well as various error messages.)  I called Ford Roadside Assistance again and got a tow truck.  We towed it to the dealer who told me that they couldn't even look at it until today.  

 

So. . .I will soon have my third battery in little more than a year.  I have less than 5800 miles on the car.   I did not buy a new car in order to have these kinds of problems.  I am 64 and have never owned an American-made car before.  I am beginning to think that I've made a big mistake.

[drdiesel1]

 

I had this work done on December 13.  Prior to that time, I had not had a battery failure.  However the dealership told me that the battery was almost completely drained, and they replaced it.  Yesterday, I went out and found the battery completely dead.  I could not open the card with the key fob and nothing was working.  I called Ford Roadside Assistance and they sent someone who tried to jump it.  That caused the dashboard lights to come on, but the car would not crank.  (Battery warning light was illuminated on the dash, as well as various error messages.)  I called Ford Roadside Assistance again and got a tow truck.  We towed it to the dealer who told me that they couldn't even look at it until today.  

 

So. . .I will soon have my third battery in little more than a year.  I have less than 5800 miles on the car.   I did not buy a new car in order to have these kinds of problems.  I am 64 and have never owned an American-made car before.  I am beginning to think that I've made a big mistake.

 

Yes, you have......... You should have owned, American cars all along ;)  Tell the knuckleheads to update your software and to

properly charge the new battery after they install it.

[BullDurham]

Yes, you have......... You should have owned, American cars all along ;)  Tell the knuckleheads to update your software and to

properly charge the new battery after they install it.

Oh, sure.  I never bought an American car because my  parents had such miserable experiences with them and the arrogance of the Big 3 who took no responsibility for the lemons they cranked out.  Just by way of comparison, my previous car was a 1999 Camry, made at the end of 1998.  The original battery did not have to be replaced until 2008.  Ten years!  Contrast that with the sorry episodes being described in this forum.  My Camry was running fine when I sold it.  I bought the C-MAX because I assumed that the 14-year old Camry would start having problems.  Instead I seem to have sold the good car and bought a lemon

 

The "knuckleheads" updated the software in December.  They did a different update this time, claiming it was designed to protect the battery against cold weather.  Cold weather in Durham, NC?  How would the C-MAX survive Chicago if it goes dead in Durham?  

[salman]

BullDurham

 

If you have not already read through the 55 pages of this thread, it might be a good idea to do so. After the first few minutes you will be able to move through the pages more quickly by recognizing posts with detailed information about attempts to diagnose 12 volt problems. You can also find a lot of information by looking at the threads on TSBs for electrical and battery issues.

 

In short, ford has TSBs out for 12 volt charging firmware, for faulty connectors on the main wiring harness, for the computer behind the infotainment display that maybe has had problems not shutting down, problems with data & phone ports that do not shut down, for bad ground connection on the Body Control Module, and maybe one or two more i am not remembering.

 

While there may have been tweaks needed to the re-charging routine, the best deductions seem to point to a parasitic draw (a short, a routine that does not shut down, ie something that continues to draw power when it should be off). There might be more than one such problem.

 

It can help a lot if you bring the full list of TSBs to the dealer, and also ask the dealer to check for any and all TSBs related to dead 12 volt batteries and also any related to electrical malfunctions. If the service department is good they will understand why they need to check for this stuff. If they are bad, try another dealer service department

Edited February 7, 2014 by salman

[Alex Sams]

Hey... I found something tonight. My service guy recommended that I remove my positive battery terminal after having the car brought in for an update. I was in a hurry, so when I saw the MFT screen say "You have finished with your update it is ok to unplug your USB drive now" I cut the car off and on again, and it went away. I didn't think anything about it. When I got home, it did the same thing when I cut it off. I called him, and his answer was to remove the positive battery terminal. 

 

Now that's weird. I've always removed the negative, however it shouldn't really matter unless you ground yourself out on the body while removing the positive terminal. Anyway, I saw the positive terminal, and then I saw a black wire bolted to the body nearby. Could that be the negative chassis connection? Maybe the entire connection? So I removed it, and the car went dead. To my surprise, removing the negative terminal revealed that the negative connection is merely a bolt. There's paint under it. The terminal is only making contact through the head of the bolt. That's probably not all there is to the battery problems, but I don't think it would hurt to have more metal on metal contact with the body. 

[wab]

Alex

Take a look at this, it's been mentioned a few times in different threads...because you disconnected the 12V battery.

It from pg 97 of my user manual 1st printing.

 

Resetting the Bounce-Back Feature

 

WARNING: The bounce-back function remains deactivated until

 

you have reset the memory.

 

You must reset the bounce-back memory separately for each window

 

after the battery has been disconnected.

 

1. Lift and hold the switch until the window is fully closed.

 

2. Release the switch.

 

3. Lift the switch again for one more second.

 

4. Press and hold the switch until the window is fully open.

 

5. Release the switch

 

 

[plus 3 golfer]

With regards to Installing a 12V  battery other than the BXT-67R, the following from the service manual "urgently recommends" that a replacement battery for the BXT-67R have the same specs as the OE battery. Apparently the software makes assumptions about the battery for use in charging relying on the accuracy of the Battery Monitoring Sensor.  In addition, it appears that there is a reset procedure to be done on the BMS when the 12 V battery is replaced.  So, the preceding discussions on replacing the BXT-67R with a higher capacity battery may be moot.

 

Also note that if one wants to disconnect the negative from the battery, one should do what Alex Sams did and disconnect at the chassis ground point. 

 

The Battery Monitoring Sensor continuously monitors the condition and the state of charge of the 12V battery and provides the BCM with this information. The Battery Monitoring Sensor

also estimates losses in the battery capacity over time. The Battery Monitoring Sensor should only be reset when the battery is replaced. It is urgently recommended that the

replacement battery has the exact same specification as the original battery. If it does not, the accuracy of the Battery Monitoring Sensor outputs will be compromised.

 

The Battery Monitoring Sensor is clamped directly to the negative terminal of the battery and grounds to the vehicle at the chassis ground connection point through the negative battery

cable and eyelet. It is part of the negative battery cable and cannot be serviced separately.

 

External customer loads must only be connected to the vehicle at the customer battery connection point. If an external customer load is connected at the negative battery post, the

Battery Monitoring Sensor accuracy cannot be guaranteed. It is recommended that the Battery Monitoring Sensor pole clamp is not removed unless a battery replacement is required.

Should the battery need to be isolated, this should be done by disconnecting the ground eyelet at the chassis ground.

 

Body Control Module (BCM)

The BCM monitors the Battery Monitoring Sensor and provides the PCM with battery state of charge information. 

 

Edited February 8, 2014 by Plus 3 Golfer