plus 3 golfer Posted January 2, 2020 Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 (edited) It appears likely that a good portion of the EPA mileage boost of the 2020 Rav4 hybrid vs previous model is a reduction in weight and CdA as the attached graph shows Road Load Horsepower based on the target RLHP coefficients submitted to the EPA for emissions and fuel economy test results. Attached is a graph of RLHP for the 2018 and 2020 (Cd less than 0.30) Rav4 Hybrid, the 2020 Escape Hybrid (for two weights) and our "beloved" C-Max Hybrid (2014 data) based on the target coefficients. Of course your mileage "will" vary. The weights shown are the weight of the vehicles when tested and will affect RLHP. 2019 Rav4 - "The drag coefficient drops by 3-4 percent, depending on model, thanks primarily to a new underfloor tray. That smooths out all the air running under the vehicle (its ground clearance is up by over half an inch), which should pay dividends at speed for highway efficiency." Edited January 2, 2020 by Plus 3 Golfer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fbov Posted January 2, 2020 Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 Lots of good info here. If I may point out two things... The C-max curve is shallower than the others; starts higher, ends lower. A shallower RLHP curve means lower aerodynamic losses. If the C-max is really a 0.30 Cd, the other cars have much higher drag coefficients. The Escape's estimate of 0.34 seems reasonable, while Toyota's estimate is not supported by this data. The RAV4 is a slightly smaller car, based on raw dimensions, and the 4000 lb. RLHP curves of Escape and RAV4 track in parallel. That's consistent with similar Cd, with an offset due to the difference in cross-sectional area. The best part is the lower weight Escape falls below the C-max curve from 30-60 MPH. There's hope for the slightly built... I'll be on the 4000 lb. curve the moment I get in. HAve fun, Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptjones Posted January 2, 2020 Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 Just talked to my Dealer and he said that they have pricing info but still can't order plugin. He's checking with District Manager to see when he can order one and get back to me. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fbov Posted January 2, 2020 Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 Trying to be an earliest adopter? Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptjones Posted January 2, 2020 Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 Can't wait to try out my mods on it.? I'm hoping to improve MPG's by 5 to 10 mpg. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homestead Posted January 3, 2020 Report Share Posted January 3, 2020 1 hour ago, ptjones said: Can't wait to try out my mods on it.? I'm hoping to improve MPG's by 5 to 10 mpg. Paul Or you could just buy a Prius? ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zalusky Posted January 3, 2020 Report Share Posted January 3, 2020 3 hours ago, homestead said: Or you could just buy a Prius? ? Except it is a butt ugly car with a terrible sloping hatch. ptjones 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptjones Posted January 3, 2020 Report Share Posted January 3, 2020 16 hours ago, homestead said: Or you could just buy a Prius? ? I assume you being funny, because I'm getting much better MPG's than my Daughter's 2012 Prius in my 2013 CMAX SEL and much nicer car. IMO? Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homestead Posted January 3, 2020 Report Share Posted January 3, 2020 1 hour ago, ptjones said: I assume you being funny, because I'm getting much better MPG's than my Daughter's 2012 Prius in my 2013 CMAX SEL and much nicer car. IMO? Paul Yep, My daughter also has a Prius in fact two of them. She complains about lack of acceleration getting the freeway. ? ptjones 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fbov Posted January 4, 2020 Report Share Posted January 4, 2020 Some of us also want cargo space. I came to the C-max after decades driving Volvo wagons. The telescopes must fit; smaller is not an option. And Paul, you get lots more improvement than that... but in MPGe. Have fun, Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billyk24 Posted January 9, 2020 Report Share Posted January 9, 2020 Get this. My 2016 RAV4 Hybrid was the dealership for an all wheel alignment. When it was done, the service manager told me the rear passenger side is non-adjustable! So I obtained a three wheel alignment. Service manager told me I could obtain aftermarket parts to have an adjustable camber arm. What the heck. What auto company approves of such designs? Well, my wish for a better 4wd for winter conditions will have to wait until the Mustang Mach E I have on order arrives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fbov Posted January 9, 2020 Report Share Posted January 9, 2020 That's not as uncommon as you might think. I also suspect something was lost in translation. There are three directions to wheel alignment, camber, toe and caster (if the wheel turns). It's likely that one or more is adjustable, and one that isn't adjustable is out of spec. Toe is commonly adjustable because it has strong effect on handling and tire wear. Camber is not. Look at your alignment report to see what's off. HAve fun, Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnowStorm Posted January 10, 2020 Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 While waiting on my hew 12v battery I checked out an Escape Hybrid Titanium on my dealer's lot (no test drive). Here's SnowStorm's thoughts - very much FWIW: Overall reaction from driver's seat and playing around with controls and screens: Quite nice enough but I think I like the C-Max better. A lot more things are configurable, like DRLs, reverse wiper and "courtesy wipe". Nothing's going to fall out of this glove box - a deep nearly vertical compartment. Software needs updating - a lot of screens had the bottom line of text 80% off the screen! Vertical seat adjustment range is huge - from almost feeling like a sports car to nearly putting my head against the roof (I'm 6'1"). For/aft rear seat adjustment is nice. Not sure how to cover the hole in the back when slid forward though. Excellent rear seat headroom. A spare tire! Not full size but there was a lot of extra space around it so I wonder if a full size one would fit. (P.S. When talking to the salesman about upcoming all electric cars he said the Fusion Plug-In Hybrid was all electric like the Mustang Mach-1 - no gas engine. But, says I, its still called a "hybrid". Well, he'd been to "the class' and explained that it was a "hybrid" because of regenerative braking!!! Hmm... learn something new every day! At least the service guys new to reset the battery age monitor without being asked!) jestevens and ptjones 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fbov Posted January 11, 2020 Report Share Posted January 11, 2020 Found out last night that one with a block heater and my name on it will be delivered to the dealer next Friday. I'll tell you more soon. Kudos to Ford for training salesmen; some of it stuck. Frank jestevens 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zalusky Posted January 11, 2020 Report Share Posted January 11, 2020 Will the Escapes being released now be upgraded to support wireless charging and... wireless carplay? Or will you have to buy a 2021 model to get that stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fbov Posted January 12, 2020 Report Share Posted January 12, 2020 I'll let you know what they tell me, although I'm unlikely to try Carplay. I am hoping there's a way to remove the wireless charging pad, if I get one. The warnings about metals heating up and damage to magnetic strips in credit cards and parking stubs seem realistic, given what's involved. Plus, my phone can't use it, and has a multi-day battery, regardless. Customization started at the block heater, so no worries mate!. HAve fun, Frank ptjones 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fbov Posted January 18, 2020 Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 Just started a new thread to talk about... New and old; Old and new. Starts tomorrow. Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptjones Posted January 18, 2020 Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 Congrats!? I'm interested in the MPG's and details about the car.? Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptjones Posted January 27, 2020 Report Share Posted January 27, 2020 I got a price sheet from trying to order a FEH Plugin and we are tring g to order it. I will know in next couple of days if it goes through.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptjones Posted January 28, 2020 Report Share Posted January 28, 2020 (edited) Well I heard back from My FORD Sales Manager and it sound like I can sign the order form next week to make it official and should have build date in the next two to three weeks.? Paul Edited January 28, 2020 by ptjones jestevens 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plus 3 golfer Posted January 29, 2020 Report Share Posted January 29, 2020 (edited) 22 hours ago, ptjones said: Well I heard back from My FORD Sales Manager and it sound like I can sign the order form next week to make it official and should have build date in the next two to three weeks.? Paul The PHEV seems to be priced about $1800 more than the Sport HEV but about $2000 less than the Titanium HEV after estimated FIT credit of around $6,000 on the PHEV and all current incentives. I can pick up an X-Plan virtually full loaded (no AWD) Escape Hybrid for $29,607 (window sticker $32,750 see link below) or a Titanium AWD HEV X-Plan for $33,394. The PHEV X-Plan price shows as $38725. Take off the $6000 and the net PHEV cost is $32725 or around $600 less than the HEV. In summary, the net cost of the three cars would be Escape Sport Hybrid FWD Loaded (XPlan with current incentives) $29,607 Escape Sport Hybrid FWD No Options (XPlan with current incentives) $26,518 Escape Titanium Hybrid AWD (XPlan with current incentives) $33,394 Escape Titanium Plug-in (XPlan with incentives and FIT credit) $31,475 Of course one can add additional options / accessories to the above prices. So, if we assume that HVB degradation with the active liquid cooling will be minimal on the PHEV, the PHEV Escape at this time is a no brainer if you want the Titanium version (I do). If one is going to keep the car for many years, the Plug-in additional cost over the Sport may (almost certainly will) pay for itself in fuel savings. https://www.windowsticker.forddirect.com/windowsticker.pdf?token=HiB6OueSn8QsdvbAmsi7ao7XuE4eJA0cmS%2FI%2BSPiFBNAQ2tF31XNa0EJn%2B7%2Bs5itGK7IzGYHCmy0siXoGuV8pKp7e0WMYSWHlSQtgL7E13rI12yik1TjtJSOWo%2Fd7Bnat7wmYG8M2OFYDvG9RvE%2BruMkuOjfIV0VTgsAutgfQM0%3D Edited January 29, 2020 by Plus 3 Golfer jestevens 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptjones Posted January 29, 2020 Report Share Posted January 29, 2020 The FEH you are showing is the SE model and my Quote is for a Titanium which is a better deal. Here is the comparison between Titanium FEH and PHVB. FEH Titanium is $33,495 w/block heater and FEPHEV Titanium is $40125 a difference of $6630. So if I can get $6000 FIT Credit the difference would be $630. Then there is a FORD Private offer of $1250 and then the X Plan of $1400 =$2650 subtract from $40125 =$37475 - FIT $6000=$31475. That's not much more than my CMAX Hybrid cost 7 yrs ago. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plus 3 golfer Posted January 29, 2020 Report Share Posted January 29, 2020 3 hours ago, ptjones said: The FEH you are showing is the SE model and my Quote is for a Titanium which is a better deal. Here is the comparison between Titanium FEH and PHVB. FEH Titanium is $33,495 w/block heater and FEPHEV Titanium is $40125 a difference of $6630. So if I can get $6000 FIT Credit the difference would be $630. Then there is a FORD Private offer of $1250 and then the X Plan of $1400 =$2650 subtract from $40125 =$37475 - FIT $6000=$31475. That's not much more than my CMAX Hybrid cost 7 yrs ago. Paul I didn't realize that the Titanium Escape was also a Hybrid. I changed my above post accordingly. Yep, the PHEV is a great deal. ptjones 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fbov Posted January 29, 2020 Report Share Posted January 29, 2020 That's what order guides tell you. And I think you're quoting an AWD Titanium Hybrid... I don't know X-Plan from a hole in the ground, but I paid less than $33,394, with AWD. Have fun, Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plus 3 golfer Posted January 29, 2020 Report Share Posted January 29, 2020 (edited) I think the point is that the XPlan (discount price given by Ford to employees / retirees of many companies) yields a consistant basis for comparing vehicles. One can walk into a dealer and dealer must sell car at that price. Of course you can haggle for more off. Here's two snips of an actual vehicle showing the XPlan price and the Window Sticker. Edited January 29, 2020 by Plus 3 Golfer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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