Battery dead

[andrewwx]

RedLdr

 

I noticed that too. You would think that Ford might notice that and then start checking parts that are unique to the Cmax.

 

Andrew

[erwhitham]

Good luck, Andrew. Hopefully a few months from now you'll be driving a car which is free from problems and gives you much happiness.

[oxnard]

Sad news all:

 

Vista Ford just called me and read to me what the engineers in Dearborn are telling people via the Oasis system. "Some Cmax owners may experience battery discharge problems if they drive short distances with high electrical loads (such as having a laptop plugged in or using the climate control system) We are aware of the problem but do not have a solution as of yet"

 

This is very bothersome because Ford is blaming us for driving the car in a certain way. It is like if my iPhone would not dial anyone in the 310 area code but worked for all other area codes and Apple came back and said "its your fault for trying to use your phone to call that area code"

 

What is doubly annoying is that I drove my Cmax with nothing plugged into any ports and with the climate control off - so the engineers are actually wrong in their assessment of the problem.

 

This is the fourth time my Cmax has been in for this problem and they had my car for the past 36 days. They have had the car for a total of 52 days.

 

I am going to try to work with Ford Customer Service and Vista Ford to get my money back - I have had enough. Hopefully they treat me well - if not its nice that my girlfriend works at a law office.

 

I sincerely hope that everybody here has better luck than I.

 

Cheers

 

Andrew

Funny, (well not really) I went to Vista Ford this afternoon to pick up my gate and garage openers and they had not heard from Dearborn yet.  This sucks.  They have only had my car for 2 weeks now.  I actually forgot what my C-Max looked like.  Keep us posted on what happens with Vista and Ford Customer Service. 

[salman]

Andrew

 

That is bad and discouraging news.

 

You are clearly in lemon law territory and Ford needs to give you a refund or replace the car. I hope Ford will agree to this with a minimum of effort on your part, but, as you know, it is best to be prepared to make a strong argument. Rebutting the Ford engineers' claim that the battery failures result from short drives with accessories plugged in would be a key point if Ford does not agree to take the car back.

 

I am personally angry that Ford is casting the problem in terms of short trips and plug-ins. My failure happened after several days of 30 minute drives and I never had any accessory plugged in. Most of the cases logged on this board did not have accessories plugged in and in many cases the car was being driven on substantial trips.

 

Even if short trips and accessories were prompts for the problem, it would still be a design issue: too small a battery, too slow a charge from the converter.

 

Ford's story about short trips and plugged in accessories is either a lie to evade responsibility or a dramatic failure to communicate information within Ford. Many of us have talked to customer care and given them details of our experience. Mbedit was called by the engineers, so he spoke to them directly! How can the engineers then say this problem is principally an issue for short-trip drivers with plugged in accessories????

 

This is very disappointing to hear.

 

Please keep us posted on your conversations with Ford, Andrew, and thank you for giving us so much information.

Edited March 7, 2013 by salman

[zhackwyatt]

Before we jump all over them, they did say: "We are aware of the problem but do not have a solution as of yet"  I don't see any blaming of customers and it looks that they are trying to find a solution.  Maybe their characterization of the issue doesn't cover everyone's situation (short drives, etc), but it's still probably a issue.

[mbedit]

Andrew, I know your disappointment, best of luck to you and if you have questions about how my Lemon case was handled don't hesitate to ask!

 

and So... I guess the question  is what was the average daily miles people with failures are logging?

 

That was one of the questions I was asked, and my answer was about 25 miles a day.

 

When I got my new C-Max I had moved. So now my commute is closer to 38 miles a day. Each way my commute went from about 12 miles to 19 so I only added 7 miles ea way, and yet I have not experienced any issues with the new one.  so how many miles is low?

[andrewwx]

My Commute is 8.7 miles each way and then my afternoon trip to the gym is 2.2 miles each way, so I can see where I would uncover this problem.

 

Cheers

 

Andrew

[roninsd]

That sounds like a "normal" driving day for me, minus the 2.2 mi to the gym. :}  No problems at this end.  Sorry your experience has been so negative.  As Salman, asked, please let us know what happens.

[Oakland C-Max]

We have an Energi, and plug the car in every night to recharge the main HV battery.  But we had the 12v battery die last weekend at 3 months and 3500 miles. The battery was replaced by the dealer and all is almost well now.  I noticed that I have no power to the 12v accessory ports, and will try to hunt down the fuse this weekend where I won't get stranded if the battery dies.

 

I think it is interesting to note on the statement from Dearborn "Some Cmax owners may experience battery discharge problems if they drive short distances with high electrical loads (such as ... using the climate control system)".  So, if its cold, we shouldn't use the heater - wear a down parka, and use a rag to defrost the windows instead?  I'll be buying a portable 12v starter this weekend.  And start reporting issues to Ford corporate.  My wife was so upset about getting stranded on the wrong side of town on a cold night with a car that wouldn't lock, she is hoping it will keep failing so we can get our money back through our state lemon laws - but I actually like the C-Max :-(

[dalebunker]

Are you in Oakland, Ca? What dealer did you buy from and how has the overall experience been. I've ordered my C-max from San Leandro Ford. Sales experience has been positive but have no clue about their service department..

[andrewwx]

Hi All:

 

Here is an update. The manager of Vista Ford told me that they began the buy back process with Ford corporate. My Ford customer care representative  requested that they send her all of the repair paperwork for the vehicle so that she may start the review process for a buy back. A few hours later my Ford customer care representative called me and told me much the same thing and added the process takes 5 to 8 days. Hopefully this process will be a smooth one. I was very happy with Vista Ford of Oxnard they did not give me any hassle with my request and seem genuinely interested in making me happy.

 

Not sure what to do now. A new Cmax is out of the question since they now have told me that the Cmax will not work with my commute (I actually don't believe that I think it is a drain somewhere like in Rdldr's car. But since they have told me that it will not work with my commute I am out of luck) I am a Federal Employee and since American tax payers pay my salary I always buy American. The Cmax was perfect for me. Maybe I will give those Recarro seats in the Focus ST another try.

 

Cheers

 

Andrew

[darrelld]

Hi All:

 

Here is an update. The manager of Vista Ford told me that they began the buy back process with Ford corporate. My Ford customer care representative  requested that they send her all of the repair paperwork for the vehicle so that she may start the review process for a buy back. A few hours later my Ford customer care representative called me and told me much the same thing and added the process takes 5 to 8 days. Hopefully this process will be a smooth one. I was very happy with Vista Ford of Oxnard they did not give me any hassle with my request and seem genuinely interested in making me happy.

 

Not sure what to do now. A new Cmax is out of the question since they now have told me that the Cmax will not work with my commute (I actually don't believe that I think it is a drain somewhere like in Rdldr's car. But since they have told me that it will not work with my commute I am out of luck) I am a Federal Employee and since American tax payers pay my salary I always buy American. The Cmax was perfect for me. Maybe I will give those Recarro seats in the Focus ST another try.

 

Cheers

 

Andrew

 

Unless there is problem with the C-Max low voltage charge design a gas powered car should have the same problem or worse maintaining the battery. Have you considered a Plug-In?

[salman]

Andrew

 

I am glad that Ford is being good about the buy back.

 

What bothers me about Ford engineering's definition of the problem is that it is more difficult to solve a problem when the problem is not correctly identified. Their comment about driving distances and electrical loads came after many of us have spent 3 months trying to get Ford central to take our problems seriously. That was time consuming for us. I wish Ford had been quicker out the gate on this and I remain concerned about how focused they are on correcting the problem.

 

That said, the fact that Ford now has at least two 12 volt related buy backs on its ledger books has got to be motivation for them to solve the problem, so this news from you is an optimistic data point.

 

Thank you for your public spiritedness in sharing information with us.

[Oakland C-Max]

Are you in Oakland, Ca? What dealer did you buy from and how has the overall experience been. I've ordered my C-max from San Leandro Ford. Sales experience has been positive but have no clue about their service department..

Yes - Oakland, CA

We did our purchase through Walnut Creek Ford b/c they got much better Yelp ratings.  They have been very responsive. We had a nasty squeak coming from the Energi HV battery compartment and the dealer dismantled the car almost to the frame to put in some insulation to remove the squeak.  I will be following up with them on the 12v battery issue, to be sure, and my experience so far is that they will treat me very well.

[ceemax71]

Without all of the electrical load data, wiring diagrams, and detailed functionality of the C-Max electrical systems, I am only speculating on the dead 12 volt battery problem.  But, following is my speculation:

 

The BCM (body control module) is powered up at all times to be able to listen for radio signals from the key FOB (for door unlock, remote start), sense the presence of the key FOB, and probably for several other functions.  The BCM will eventually run the 12 volt battery down below the minimum voltage to allow the systems to power up.  This is true on most all vehicles made in the last several years.  The time it takes to drain the battery varies depending on the capacity of the battery, age of the battery, and actual power load when the key is off and engine is not running.  Some will go for months; some will go for weeks before the battery is dead.  And obviously some vehicles will only go for days/hours before the battery is dead.

 

Because the 12 volt battery is not used to power a starter motor, hybrid vehicles have a much lower capacity battery to reduce weight and space.  The gas engine is actually started with the high-voltage motor-generator.

 

With all of the accessories requiring high current (head-lights, heated mirrors, defrosters, heated seats, power lift gates, etc.), the 12-volt charging system could struggle to charge the 12 volt battery at the same time as powering all of the 12 volt loads.  The result being that when the car is shut down, the 12 volt battery might not be fully charged.  Driving patterns such as short trips with headlights on and heating devices would compound the problem.

I would predict that during the summer there will be fewer issues with dead 12 volt batteries since power won’t be needed for the heated seats, defrosters, and heated mirrors.  So the 12 volt battery will have a better chance of staying charged.

 

I am sure Ford engineers are working hard to solve the problem and I would bet that some even monitor this forum to get valuable feedback from C-Max owners.  It would be nice if someone at Ford would chime in and explain what is actually going on.  But, I am sure that Ford corporate policy strictly forbids doing so because of the legal ramifications.

[dalebunker]

Yes - Oakland, CA

We did our purchase through Walnut Creek Ford b/c they got much better Yelp ratings.  They have been very responsive. We had a nasty squeak coming from the Energi HV battery compartment and the dealer dismantled the car almost to the frame to put in some insulation to remove the squeak.  I will be following up with them on the 12v battery issue, to be sure, and my experience so far is that they will treat me very well.

Thanks Oakland.  I'll see how it goes with San Leandro Ford.  A good friend of mine knows the fleet manger there, and referred me.  The experience dealing with him has been great.  Just not so sure about the service yet.  If needed to, I can use Walnut Creek as a back up.  I appreciate the feedback.

[MikeB]

Not sure what to do now. A new Cmax is out of the question since they now have told me that the Cmax will not work with my commute (I actually don't believe that I think it is a drain somewhere like in Rdldr's car. But since they have told me that it will not work with my commute I am out of luck) I am a Federal Employee and since American tax payers pay my salary I always buy American. The Cmax was perfect for me. Maybe I will give those Recarro seats in the Focus ST another try.

Andrew, since you've got such a nice short commute, and you clearly like the C-Max, why not look at the C-Max Energi? You're pretty close to the battery-only range, but think about driving your whole day without even starting the engine!

 

As for battery failures, there has been only one in an Energi that I know of. The fact that we plug in for ~7 hours each day helps keep our 12v battery charged, even when we aren't driving long distances. In fact, I don't think my car has ever spent a night without the comfort of a plug.

[Oakland C-Max]

Andrew, since you've got such a nice short commute, and you clearly like the C-Max, why not look at the C-Max Energi? You're pretty close to the battery-only range, but think about driving your whole day without even starting the engine!

 

As for battery failures, there has been only one in an Energi that I know of. The fact that we plug in for ~7 hours each day helps keep our 12v battery charged, even when we aren't driving long distances. In fact, I don't think my car has ever spent a night without the comfort of a plug.

Hi MikeB,  I'm the one that had the 12v die in an Energi.  I'm not so sure the 12v charges when the HV battery is charging when plugged in.  I'll be doing some tests over the weekend to check it out.  But one thing is clear - the day it died, the car had been used for several short trips, in cold weather, neccisitating using the climate system, and headlights at night.  Oh! and the 12v accessory ports were all dead after we got the car back from service at the dealer. 

 

It's usually driven at least 300 miles/week.

[oxnard]

Andrew, since you've got such a nice short commute, and you clearly like the C-Max, why not look at the C-Max Energi? You're pretty close to the battery-only range, but think about driving your whole day without even starting the engine!

 

As for battery failures, there has been only one in an Energi that I know of. The fact that we plug in for ~7 hours each day helps keep our 12v battery charged, even when we aren't driving long distances. In fact, I don't think my car has ever spent a night without the comfort of a plug.

 

I have the nearly the same driving pattern as Andrew and my C-max is sitting next to his at the dealer.  I suppose I could drive the C-max more but I have a 12K/yr. three year lease.  Don't think it would be too fair for me to go over my limit just to keep the undersized battery charged.  I don't use anything beyond my cell phone while in the car.  I live at the beach.  Don't use the air or heat too often. Most of my driving is during the day and I don't have heated seats or mirrors. I'll be heading over to the dealer Monday in my P.O.S. Chevy Cruze rental to discuss the issue with the manager.

[MikeB]

It doesn't make sense that short drives alone will kill your battery, especially in the Energi. I've got a 5 mile commute, so I'm doing 10 miles a day, plus sometimes another 2-7 for a dinner run. I used the climate system and headlights for most of my driving in Jan and Feb. (I do long trips on the weekend, but that's another story) That's short enough that I should have serious battery problems based on low daily mileage, but mine has never failed. I'm sure the 12v systems are active when the battery is charging, the fans are running, the computer is monitoring the charging process, and the cell radio is actively telling Ford that the charging process is happening. That type of power draw is enough to justify turning on the DC/DC converter to feed the 12v battery off the (charging) traction battery.

 

Personally, I think there's a defective module somewhere causing extra power drain. But if there really is a design flaw, if the DC/DC charger just isn't big enough for someone with consistently short drives, then either I've got a charmed vehicle or the Energi is charging the 12v battery at the same time the big one charges.

[Max Power]

My data would indicate that the charging system is deficient. Even long drives are not giving my battery a full charge.

 

If a  5W solar panel is improving my charge level, the converter is probably deficient.

 

One thing I noticed today.  I had my displays on full power.  I now have them on full dim.  I will see if that improves the charge level over time.

 

How many people with battery problems have not dimmed their interior displays?

[bymaine]

I keep my interior displays at about 50% dimmed. I have had 1 battery failure with no resolution from Ford. Cmax returned after a week at the dealer 'awaiting instruction from Ford engineers" 

[salman]

My data would indicate that the charging system is deficient. Even long drives are not giving my battery a full charge.

 

If a  5W solar panel is improving my charge level, the converter is probably deficient.

 

One thing I noticed today.  I had my displays on full power.  I now have them on full dim.  I will see if that improves the charge level over time.

 

How many people with battery problems have not dimmed their interior displays?

Max

 

Have you already tried the 5W solar panel and shown a fuller charged battery? I don't recall you mentioning this in earlier posts, so I am not sure whether you mean that have already tested it or are saying that you plan to test it.

 

My understanding is that after a battery gets depleted and especially after getting depleted repeatedly, that battery no longer takes and holds a full charge. Sulfation degrades its capacity.

 

It is possible that the converter (or the software controlling the converter) is not fully charging the battery, but it is also possible that the battery has been degraded by repeated depletion due to power drains.

 

Your experiments might help provide clues to answer that question.

[Sparky]

For the benefit of those testing their batteries using a digital volt meter, I conducted a test this morning.  Since I don't have my C-MAX yet, I tested my Subaru Forester.  

This test is an example of what you should see when testing your C-MAX.  The Subaru is 4 years old. The battery was replaced one year ago.   It has had no electrical problems or dead batteries.  The original battery was replaced after 3 years as normal maintenance.

After sitting outside (33'F) overnight, the voltage was 12.5v.  With the interior lights on the voltage dropped to 12.2v.

After starting, the charging voltage went to 14.8v.  After running for 15 minutes, the voltage had stabilized at 14.4v.

Measured charging current after starting was 30+ Amps, slowly dropping to 25A after one minute and 4A after 15 minutes.

The engine was shutdown and the voltage was 13.2v.  Over the next hour the surface charge slowly dissipated and voltage dropped to 12.6v.  

By actual measurement the interior lights draw 3 amps.  Opening the door caused a voltage drop of about .25 volt.  If you have LED lighting it will be much less.

 

Another test is to check your voltage with the system on, ICE running and not running, and lights, defroster, radio, etc. on.  Your voltage should not drop below 14 volts.  Using the defroster may cause the ICE to start.  The engine does not charge the 12v battery, but will charge the high voltage lithium battery.

I am happy to test a C-Max for anyone in the Auburn, California area.  

Edited March 9, 2013 by Sparky

[Max Power]

Max

 

Have you already tried the 5W solar panel and shown a fuller charged battery? I don't recall you mentioning this in earlier posts, so I am not sure whether you mean that have already tested it or are saying that you plan to test it.

 

My understanding is that after a battery gets depleted and especially after getting depleted repeatedly, that battery no longer takes and holds a full charge. Sulfation degrades its capacity.

 

It is possible that the converter (or the software controlling the converter) is not fully charging the battery, but it is also possible that the battery has been degraded by repeated depletion due to power drains.

 

Your experiments might help provide clues to answer that question.

I'm .2 volts higher today.  That could be the panel.   IDK at this point as I've only had the panel two days.  Either way, the facts that it fluctutates from day to day points to the converter or software.  I've seen a .1 gain each day I've had the panel in.  I'll see if that holds up.

 

I'm not sure if I want to buy a charger just to see if I can top up this battery any further.  I might do that or I might just have the dealership test the battery so they can replace it.

 

I am going to leave the tester in while I drive and see if I happen to notice any charging voltage differences under different conditions that would further point to the converter or software.  It's possible the converter shuts off when the EV battery is at its lower level, etc.