For those who have had 12v Battery problems

[drdiesel1]

Pardon my ignorance, but what is a "lab scope" and what can it monitor?

 

Mine is a Pico Lab Scope. It's a Digital Storage Oscilloscope.  It measures voltage over time. You can add other accessories to measure cylinder compression, amps/current draw, exhaust pulses, secondary ignition KV, fuel pressure.  You can watch crank sensors, cam sensors, valve actuation, relative compression, starter draw,

voltage drop of any circuit or relays. Fuel pump waveforms while the pump is running. Anything that is an automotive electrical component can be tested, inspected and monitored while in operation. It's called dynamic testing.

 

You can setup the scope to monitor anything and watch trends over given times.  You could monitor the 12V

battery voltage over a week. With a multiple channel scope, you can monitor the amperage draw at the same time.

Most scopes are 2 and 4 channel. It gives you the opportunity to setup other inputs along with the one you might

have a problem with. This comes in handy on intermittent stalling and hard start problems. Random electrical

problems can be difficult to catch. With the scope, you can run a monitor and watch it for long periods, as long as you have the correct setup. Parasitic load testing is common practice on dead battery issues. Most of the time,

I just use my Fluke DMM and wait anywhere from 20 to 60 minutes to find the systems draw.  Anything over

35 to 40 M/A's is considered excessive.  The C-Max 12V battery is only a 390 CCA battery. Most standard car

batteries are around 600 CCA's and up.  This will shorten the batteries capability when the system has a draw.

 

Without a conventional starter to start the car, you never know the 12V batteries SOC, unless you measure it.

This is why everyone finds it dead without notice. Conventional cars use the starter to start the engine and it

loads the battery with a 150 to 250 amp draw while cranking. You physically hear it and can tell if it has a low

battery, because the starter will crank slow, drag or just click. The hybrid is started with MG1 and it's power

comes from the HVB.  The only active role the 12V battery has, is to power the controllers and allow the HVB

contacts to close when you push the power button on the dash or turn the key on an SE model.  You don't

get any feedback from it to know if the 12V battery is getting low, until it's dead :drop:

Here's a scope capture image of the crank sensor, the cam sensor and a pressure transducer that is reading the piston travel

in a 2004 Ford F150 that wont start. It's a reman motor and they improperly installed the timing chain. The shop had me program a new PCM for it.  Didn't fix it :spend:

Edited November 3, 2013 by drdiesel1

[salman]

 

 QUOTING THE GOOD DOCTOR:

 

You can setup the scope to monitor anything and watch trends over given times.  You could monitor the 12V

battery voltage over a week.

 

Random electrical problems can be difficult to catch.

 

Parasitic load testing is common practice on dead battery issues.

 

The C-Max 12V battery is only a 390 CCA battery. Most standard car

batteries are around 600 CCA's and up.  This will shorten the batteries capability when the system has a draw.

 

Without a conventional starter to start the car, you never know the 12V batteries SOC, unless you measure it.

This is why everyone finds it dead without notice. Conventional cars use the starter to start the engine and it

loads the battery with a 150 to 250 amp draw while cranking. You physically hear it and can tell if it has a low

battery, because the starter will crank slow, drag or just click. The hybrid is started with MG1 and it's power

comes from the HVB.  The only active role the 12V battery has, is to power the controllers and allow the HVB

contacts to close when you push the power button on the dash or turn the key on an SE model.  You don't

get any feedback from it to know if the 12V battery is getting low, until it's dead :drop:

 

 

AND PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN POSTING ABOUT C-MAX 12 VOLT PROBLEMS HAVE POSTED ALL OF THIS INFORMATION GOING BACK TO ABOUT NOVEMBER 2012. IT IS ALL HERE ALREADY ON THESE THREADS, AND THESE TESTS HAVE BEEN TRIED.

 

FORD HAS THOUGHT THAT IT FOUND POWER DRAINS IN INSTRUMENT MODULES IN ONE CAR, IN THE ENTERTAINMENT MODULE IN ANOTHER CAR, AND CAUSED BY FOULED ELECTRICAL CONNECTORS IN OTHER CARS - PROBLEMS CONTINUED.

 

FORD HAS PUT SOME C-MAX CARS ON LONG TERM TESTING EQUIPMENT, BOTH PRIVATELY OWNED CARS AND ALSO THE BUY BACKS IT SENT TO FORD ENGINEERS TO DISSECT.

 

NOW THINK ABOUT WHAT A LONG TERM TEST IN A SHOP MEANS FOR A PRIVATELY OWNED CAR: 1) THE 12 VOLT TROUBLES ARE RANDOM OCCURANCES SOMETIMES MONTHS APART, 2) IN SOME STATES THE LEMMON LAW SAYS 30 DAYS IN THE SHOP IS A DEFINITION OF A LEMON, AND 3) LONG TERM TESTS HAVE NOT YET PRODUCED RELIABLE FIXES AFTER ONE YEAR.

 

WE KNOW THE BATTERY IS SMALL. PRIUS ALSO HAS A SMALL BATTERY, AND OPTIMA MAKES A MORE ROBUST AFTER MARKET BATTERY FOR THE PRIUS. NONE EXISTS FOR THE C-MAX. AND WHILE WE HAVE ALL SPECULATED THAT THE SMALL CAPACITY OF THE C-MAX 12 VOLT BATTERY IS CONTRIBUTING TO THE PROBLEMS, THERE IS NO WAY TO FIND OUT HOW MUCH IT CONTRIBUTES UNTIL THE MAIN CAUSES ARE DIAGNOSED.

[drdiesel1]

It's not a mystery.  It's an electrical problem and it can be isolated. It's not something that magically comes and goes with the tide.

[jdbob]

It's not something that magically comes and goes with the tide.

 

If you parked your car close enough to the ocean it might :)

[rvc]

I'm new to the forum. I have had 4 dead battery

happenings since I purchased my C Max in late Dec 2012. After just jumping the first couple times I have taken it to the dealer twice. First dealer did

a software update that supposedly took care of the issue. But this week it happened again.took to dealer hoping for quick fix but not to be. They comped me a rentalfor the wkend. I'm hoping that this week will bring a final resolution.

[salman]

It is a mystery until Ford or Dr Diesel figures out the cause or causes. It is not magic nor is it a supernatural occurrence, so it can be fixed. Anything mechanical can be fixed, if someone is willing and able to spend the time and money to do it by rebuilding as much as is necessary and redesigning components that might have been defective from the moment of design. The question is whether you can afford to go on the ride in terms of time and money, and what level of time and money risk you are willing to take because 1) we don't know how long it will take to find the diagnosis and fixes needed, 2) the warranty is finite, and 3) Lemon Laws also have a time limitation.

[salman]

I'm new to the forum. I have had 4 dead battery

happenings since I purchased my C Max in late Dec 2012. After just jumping the first couple times I have taken it to the dealer twice. First dealer did

a software update that supposedly took care of the issue. But this week it happened again.took to dealer hoping for quick fix but not to be. They comped me a rentalfor the wkend. I'm hoping that this week will bring a final resolution.

 

Hi

 

There is a ton of information on this thread and related threads listed in the Maintenance, Recall & TSB section. You'd do well to start reading them from the beginning. You'll be able to skip quickly through many posts that don't have substantial information. It won't take all that long to do because it will become quicker as you go.

 

Your post is a reminder to everyone here that the problems reported on this forum are a self-selected sample of the total number of problems. The actual number of people with 12 volt problems is greater than we can see.

[viajero]

It's not a mystery.  It's an electrical problem and it can be isolated. It's not something that magically comes and goes with the tide.

 

The trouble is there may be more than one problem, and they may not be electrical problems per se, but rather firmware problems.  When you have enough lines of code, software becomes so complex that for practical purposes, problems magically come and go with the tide.

 

I have a smartphone app that logs battery voltage and temperature, and my phone went for 11 months with very little background power consumption.  Then a few weeks ago I saw the battery was almost dead and something had been pulling a lot of current.  The battery usage screen just said "Android System".  I restarted the phone and it hasn't happened since - it came and went with the tide.

 

Some app got in a bad state where it was trying to phone home and load ads or something, but to figure out which app would require some debug tools to log what had been accessing the system.  Even if I'd found the app, it would be difficult or impossible to figure out what made that app go wrong without the people who wrote it.

 

For a more C-Max specific example, on another thread drdiesel found that it was accessing the USB drive while the car was off.  But why was it doing that?  Does it always do that on all cars?  Might it not do it on some cars, and then, like my phone, suddenly decide to start doing it for some reason?  What else does it do periodically while the car's not running?  That's a firmware problem which would require the people who wrote it to debug all the way back to root cause.

 

The firmware in the computer decides how to charge the 12V battery, and is awake and doing things even when the car is turned off.  It has many opportunities to kill the battery even if there's nothing wrong with the wiring or hardware in the car.

 

In theory any software problem can be debugged but sometimes you need the developers and access to the source code and time to run experiments.  That's no fun when your car has to stay in the shop.

[drdiesel1]

The trouble is there may be more than one problem, and they may not be electrical problems per se, but rather firmware problems.  When you have enough lines of code, software becomes so complex that for practical purposes, problems magically come and go with the tide.

 

I have a smartphone app that logs battery voltage and temperature, and my phone went for 11 months with very little background power consumption.  Then a few weeks ago I saw the battery was almost dead and something had been pulling a lot of current.  The battery usage screen just said "Android System".  I restarted the phone and it hasn't happened since - it came and went with the tide.

 

Some app got in a bad state where it was trying to phone home and load ads or something, but to figure out which app would require some debug tools to log what had been accessing the system.  Even if I'd found the app, it would be difficult or impossible to figure out what made that app go wrong without the people who wrote it.

 

For a more C-Max specific example, on another thread drdiesel found that it was accessing the USB drive while the car was off.  But why was it doing that?  Does it always do that on all cars?  Might it not do it on some cars, and then, like my phone, suddenly decide to start doing it for some reason?  What else does it do periodically while the car's not running?  That's a firmware problem which would require the people who wrote it to debug all the way back to root cause.

 

The firmware in the computer decides how to charge the 12V battery, and is awake and doing things even when the car is turned off.  It has many opportunities to kill the battery even if there's nothing wrong with the wiring or hardware in the car.

 

In theory any software problem can be debugged but sometimes you need the developers and access to the source code and time to run experiments.  That's no fun when your car has to stay in the shop.

By monitoring amperage and voltage loads, you can isolate the problem(s)  After you find the source, then you can figure out why it's happening. They don't need to check code, at least until they find the source.  You're working from the wrong end.

Isolate the source of the draw first. If it's a control module, look at it and it's functions or it's direct relations to others.

Edited November 4, 2013 by drdiesel1

[Jus-A-CMax]

Salman - cease the shouting please. Gives me a headache to read it, and cut out the snide remarks to the Doc jus as he's to cut out any snide remarks to anyone else, K? Thank you.

 

Carry on.... :dogwalk:

Edited November 4, 2013 by Jus-A-CMax

[drdiesel1]

You can now use the New Ford App to get a low 12V battery alert ;)

 

 

Edited November 4, 2013 by drdiesel1

[salman]

point taken

 

FWIW, the all-caps vs regular upper/lower case was the only way to distinguish a quotation on an I-Pad. Not pretty, I know

[drdiesel1]

point taken

 

FWIW, the all-caps vs regular upper/lower case was the only way to distinguish a quotation on an I-Pad. Not pretty, I know

Just use the Quote button ;)

[salman]

By monitoring amperage and voltage loads, you can isolate the problem(s)  After you find the source, then you can figure out why it's happening. They don't need to check code, at least until they find the source.  You're working from the wrong end.

Isolate the source of the draw first. If it's a control module, look at it and it's functions or it's direct relations to others.

Now I just don't get this. Viajero did exactly what Dr D says should be done, and yet Dr D says Viajero is "working from the wrong end."

 

Viajero gave an example, namely that Dr D identified the fact that his car's USB port was going active when it should be off. So, Viajero then asked, quite logically, why was this happening? How could the cause be found? And how could it be fixed? Dr D located the symptom (USB going active) and Viajero then described very clearly the general process of finding the cause in the car's firmware: programmers would need to debug all the way back to the first causes.

 

So how did Viajero start on the wrong end of the problem? He started with Dr D's isolation of the location of the power draw and then quite properly Viajero explained that this would likely be happening because of a bug in firmware. It is exactly what Dr D says should be done. Yet Dr D says it is backwards?

 

By the way, this is what Ford seems to be doing. First they tested the batteries and we all wondered if Ford got a bad lot of them, and then many of us hypothesized that the battery was too small in reserve capacity. Then Ford searched for shorts (the electrical connectors found a bit later) and for modules that draw power when they shouldn't. Then they issued TSBs to update firmware for the 4.2 info screen, and then to update the 12 volt charging routines.

 

These facts remain: 1) while it is easy to see that there is a draw when a meter is hooked up, it can be difficult to locate the source of the draw. 2) In all the cases of dead 12 volt systems, very few instances of power draws have been found. 3) To the extent that a power draw is caused by a bug in firmware, it can difficult and time consuming to find the bug. 4) It is clear that Ford has been searching for defective batteries, power draws, and firmware bugs, pretty much in that order of time sequence. And yet after a year they have not been able to diagnose and solve the problem.

 

Toyota does not appear to have this kind of problem with the Prius.

 

Moreover, it seems that quite a few different kinds of repair issues with the C-Max get bogged down in complexity such that it takes mechanics and Ford engineers a long time to sort things out. The hardware/software nexus in the C-Max seems to be a tangled nest to work in, and it seems to have some persistent bugs that cause serious problems.

[wab]

Didn't I read somewhere that Ford just hired a 1000 programmers? 

[drdiesel1]

Now I just don't get this. Viajero did exactly what Dr D says should be done, and yet Dr D says Viajero is "working from the wrong end."

 

Viajero gave an example, namely that Dr D identified the fact that his car's USB port was going active when it should be off. So, Viajero then asked, quite logically, why was this happening? How could the cause be found? And how could it be fixed? Dr D located the symptom (USB going active) and Viajero then described very clearly the general process of finding the cause in the car's firmware: programmers would need to debug all the way back to the first causes.

 

So how did Viajero start on the wrong end of the problem? He started with Dr D's isolation of the location of the power draw and then quite properly Viajero explained that this would likely be happening because of a bug in firmware. It is exactly what Dr D says should be done. Yet Dr D says it is backwards?

 

By the way, this is what Ford seems to be doing. First they tested the batteries and we all wondered if Ford got a bad lot of them, and then many of us hypothesized that the battery was too small in reserve capacity. Then Ford searched for shorts (the electrical connectors found a bit later) and for modules that draw power when they shouldn't. Then they issued TSBs to update firmware for the 4.2 info screen, and then to update the 12 volt charging routines.

 

These facts remain: 1) while it is easy to see that there is a draw when a meter is hooked up, it can be difficult to locate the source of the draw. 2) In all the cases of dead 12 volt systems, very few instances of power draws have been found. 3) To the extent that a power draw is caused by a bug in firmware, it can difficult and time consuming to find the bug. 4) It is clear that Ford has been searching for defective batteries, power draws, and firmware bugs, pretty much in that order of time sequence. And yet after a year they have not been able to diagnose and solve the problem.

 

Toyota does not appear to have this kind of problem with the Prius.

 

Moreover, it seems that quite a few different kinds of repair issues with the C-Max get bogged down in complexity such that it takes mechanics and Ford engineers a long time to sort things out. The hardware/software nexus in the C-Max seems to be a tangled nest to work in, and it seems to have some persistent bugs that cause serious problems.

I never identified anything on anyone's car....... What exactly is your problem and why do you continually rant and confuse the subject ?

 

You have no clue what you're ranting about  and the best I can tell, you just like to run off with your hair on fire :clapping:

 

You don't need to listen, believe, do or concern yourself with anything I have to say, so go and grind your ax on someone else.

Some people wont/don't like to hear anything they don't agree with and it seems like you don't agree with anything. Have fun!

 

Oh! Toyota has no tech, so it's easy not to have problems if the car isn't equipped :lol: Toyota's are a pile of junk, IMO.

Please don't compare my Ford with a crapwagon Toyota.  There is none..........Ford is a better car with no question.

Edited November 4, 2013 by drdiesel1

[Adair]

OK salman and drdiesel1, y'all quit pushing each others buttons please! We want to read what you have to say, but without the constant needling of each other. Salman, DrD has been trying............let's see you try too!

 

(salman, I can't imagine how frustrating this problem must be for you and the others unfortunate enough to be suffering thru it. I sincerely hope there is a resolution soon!)

 

Libra peacemaker mod sighning off.......

[DaveofDurham]

You can now use the New Ford App to get a low 12V battery alert ;)

 

 

Untitled-2.jpg

 

Is this only for the Energi?

[ceemax71]

Is this only for the Energi?

The app is only for the Energi.  The Energi has a built-in cell phone connection to send messages.  The regular C-Max hybrid does not have this feature.

[drdiesel1]

Is this only for the Energi?

I don't know. Try it ;)

[jdbob]

ceemax71 is right. The app is only for Energi, and only if you have AT&T cell service where you live.

[drdiesel1]

ceemax71 is right. The app is only for Energi, and only if you have AT&T cell service where you live.

I don't have AT&T service. It sends information to my PC :happy feet:

 

Setup an account here: https://phev.myfordmobile.com/content/mfm/en_us/site/login.html

Edited November 4, 2013 by drdiesel1

[jdbob]

I don't have AT&T service. It sends information to my PC :happy feet:

 

Setup an account here: https://phev.myfordmobile.com/content/mfm/en_us/site/login.html

 

You don't need to have an AT&T account. The area where you car is located needs AT&T 2G Data cell service, which Monterey has.

[YakMax]

Yesterday, we woke up to a completely dead C-Max! I must say that Ford Roadside Assistance is very efficient as my car had to be towed to the dealer.

The dealer had my car for the whole day as they diagnosed the problem.  The paperwork showed that they had to reprogram FCDIM which I believe they called a voltage module or controller. They checked the condition of the battery and it had not been damaged. The work order also stated that there was a recall associated with this battery problem.

 

However after having that experience, the first thing I did this morning was go out and check out the car after it had sat all night. Everything looks good so we will see if this fixed the problem.

[Bill-N]

Yesterday, we woke up to a completely dead C-Max! I must say that Ford Roadside Assistance is very efficient as my car had to be towed to the dealer.

The dealer had my car for the whole day as they diagnosed the problem.  The paperwork showed that they had to reprogram FCDIM which I believe they called a voltage module or controller. They checked the condition of the battery and it had not been damaged. The work order also stated that there was a recall associated with this battery problem.

 

However after having that experience, the first thing I did this morning was go out and check out the car after it had sat all night. Everything looks good so we will see if this fixed the problem.

 

There's a Field Service Action (FSA) about reprogramming the FCDIM (Front Control Display Interface Module) mentioned in the Maintenance sub-forum.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Bill-N