plus 3 golfer

OK, I think we see similar except that your videos are poor quality and one can't really see much except full / near full opening and can't tell how closed the shutters really are plus you have the grille covers on when video recording. I recall you believing that the shutters are "leaky" - allowing a lot of air around them in the past This really is likely more of not being able to see smaller shutter opening in your videos. The point would be to record normal shutter operations showing open positions like my video as it is an easier sell on grille covers. It's easier to convince others that your grille covers will help improve FE because of enchanced aero dynamics, quicker warmup, higher operating temps and so forth because normal shutter operations allow air to flow through under many conditions while yours block virtually all air flow. But evidently you consider this "off topic." :) Bottom line when covers are on it's moot how the shutters opperate. You need to show operations without shutters on. ;) I agree that grille covers do improve FE as I have used them (as you know purchased from you) and tested them. :)

Attached is a graph from ForScan data that is synced to the time stamps in the youtube video in my post above that shows that it is difficult to tell the differences between full close and around 10-15 degrees or so open. Look at the following closely and compare video time stamp shown below with graph time stamp. It also indicates that with AC off, shutters are relatively closed even with high ECT temps. Watching videos is not a very good way to determine why shutters open and close as I learned several years ago when I watched my shutter operation without ForScan data. In additon, based on what I've seen with ForScan data under many different operating conditions, Ford's algorithms are likely similar to what I've read about in various studies and likely implemented in 13B07. The goal after ICE reached reached a certain operating temperature would be to operate more efficiently by comparing: 1) the aerodynamic benefits of closing shutters (should be less load on ICE and better FE when closing shutters) against 2) effect on operating conditions especially additional load on ICE because of closing shutters (like AC ON and higher compresser and likely fan demand which will decrease FE). Thus, speed plays a role in shutter operation because benefits of aerodynamic improvements are minimal at lower speeds. Use AC at low speeds, increase opening of shutters. Use AC at higher speeds decrease opening of shutters from full open. More on this in a following post on shutter operation with AC on. Also, there will be improved FE from warming up ICE quicker and to a higher operating temperature by closing shutters. Use of grille covers, if not running AC, should increase aero benefits over closed grille shutters. I will add another post showing ForScan graphs with AC ON and shutter positions. 1) TS 3:40 shows shutters full close with AC off and speed less 50 mph. Note this TS. 2) TS 4:15 shows about a 5% open with AC off and mph greater than 50 mph and ECT is about 194F. You have to look closely to see the opening. With video stopped, move the slider back to the TS in point1 and then back to TS in this step. Note the ever so slight difference. 3) TS 4:39 shows opening around 15% and ECT is about 205F. Even 15% looks closed. Again look back to step 1 TS and compare. 4) TS 4:47 shows opening increased to around 33% as speed above about 50 mph and WT around 216F. Most would think this opening is less than 33%. 5) TS 6:01 shows closing back to around 15% as speed fell below 50 mph. 6) Note also that when I came "almost" stop sign (look at graph with speed approaching 0 mph), shutters opened very quickly to virtually 100% again with No AC on.

What? makes no sense. Watch video especially starting at around 3:20. Also, look carefully because at low open %, the shutters look closed but are not. When I get to the ForScan data, I'll put time on the Forscan graph. The last 3-4 minutes is when coolant temp was about 195 and higher. Note how the shutters are partially open and cioolant temp was above 200+. Graph will show that. :)

Ok I finally recorded data (video and Forscan data). It's going to take me some time to sync graphs from Forscan data with the video. Here's what I see and said in other threads: 1) it's very difficult to see on videos grille opening less than 10-15 degrees. 2) as I stated in other threads, once coolant temp reaches about 195* upto when grilles are fully open (full open appears to vary between 212 - 217* depending on speed) the shutters % open can vary considerably and quickly. 3) when AC is turned on shutters appear to fully open when coolant temp is high around 195* I have to check Forscan data. Below such coolant temp, shutter opening varies with speed and temp. So, I believe we are seeing the same operation at high coolant temps. Except you are infering that such high temp shutter operation applies to all coolant temps and speed : "I did YouTube videos back in 2016 of shutter operations and from the videos you can see shutters are either open or closed, no in between. In A/C operation the shutters are open all the way all the time no matter speed or WT." Your statement only applies to very high coolant temps that are typically only seen with grille covers on. I believe I got up to 217 * driving in low at 60 - 65 with ambient in low 90s* . You will see from my data there is a lot of "in between" shutter operation between 195* + and up.to full close temp.

This makes no sense from a control perspective as being a "controls engineer" in my early career. One would design a system to anticipate approaching a max. / min. trigger point and start controls prior to reaching trigger point. Also, Ford clearly states this with repect to 13b07: Optimizing the use of Active Grille Shutters to reduce aerodynamic drag under more driving and temperature conditions including cold weather, during air conditioner use, and when the engine coolant temperature is higher.Note the highlighted red text - More conditions not less. In fact, hybridbear and I see the same controls (more driving and temperature conditions to optimize the use of the shutters) which is not what you continue to post which is virtually on / off operations. Below are links to hybridbear's post. IMO, your 13b07 calibration is incorrect or your grille covers are "confusing" the algorithm. http://fordfusionhybridforum.com/topic/9689-road-trip-observations-with-torque-pro/?p=100796 http://fordfusionhybridforum.com/topic/9839-high-transmission-temperature/page-6?do=findComment&comment=98575 http://fordfusionhybridforum.com/topic/9689-road-trip-observations-with-torque-pro/page-3?do=findComment&comment=97728

Couple of points: 1) There are studies on effect of shutters on AC. Higher condenser temps due to less air flow because of closed shutters result in higher compressor load and higher fan speed load. There's an optimal shutter opening that will maximize FE when running AC. That's why at 0 mph, the shutters are full open when AC is on and as speed increases shutters close to 40% open at about 50 mph and increase opening when ambient temp is above 70F. So, if you hard wired shut the shutters, you will likely decrease FE when you use AC. This is the primary reason I stopped using covers when I (my wife) run AC (which in Phoenix is 12 months a year. 2) ECT and TFT could run too hot under certain condition and it would likely be a pain to un-hardwire. :) 3) The Cd is likely lower with covers over the grills rather than having the grills closed with no covers.

Yes, many times. I've got several posts with graphs describing / showing the operation under certain conditions wihich is consistent with what hyridbear saw and posted on the Fusion Hybrid forum. I have validated that my grille shutter actual position shown in ForScan appears to be the actual physical position of the shutters. The shutters can move through 16 positions from 0-90 degrees or about 5.5 degrees per step depending on ambient temperature, AC on/off, speed, and coolant temperature being the most significant variables to shutter operation. There may be other variables that I am not aware of. I believe that adding grille covers "confuses" the shutter control algorithm as the algorithm gets feedback of actual shutter position. My guess is that when commanded performance (such as shutters commanded to open expecting certain effect on temp) doesn't match expected performance within an error bandwidth (shutter indicated matches commanded yet temp is outside expected), the shutters may default to commanded full open / close when perhaps they should be partially open. One may also see errratic shutter operation from fully closed to fully open trying to match performance being seen with shutter position.

7th digit in VIN C = Energi https://www.fleet.ford.com/partsandservice/vin-guides/ ,VIN2013.pdf

It's unfortunate you didn't notice the fluid leaking (dripping on floor / ground). For other, this is why I believe that a $10 Smartphone App and a $20 ELM327 OBDII plugin adapter would have likely indicated elevated fluid temps and generator / motor coil temps and perhaps caught the leak before damage occured. Maybe $1000-$1200 to replace seal (about 10 + hours of labor) as IIRC, engine and transmission have to be removed together. You can likely save around $4-5k with used tranny. I'm not aware of anyone that rebuilds the tranny. Probably still better off dumping your Energi as your HVB likey has lost significant usable kWh of capacity from new and the retail value if fixed with new or used tranny won't be much more than $9k.

The Energi HVB has over 5X the energy storage as the Hybrid and the INL data for Energi test vehicles shows around 2X the degradation %. Lastly, the Energi operates over a SOC % range that is about 2X wider. Thus, when the Energi loses capacity, the lost capacity reduces the usable energy available for EV now operation and EV range is reduced. For example, the Energi 7.6 kWh of capacity operates down to about 20% SOC in EV mode. or down to 1.5 kWh. Then, about 40% of the Hybrid 1.4 kWh or about 0.6 kWh would be reserved for Hybrid operation which leaves about 5.5 kWh for EV range: (5.5 = 7.6 - 1.5 - 0.6). The 5.5 kWh is about what most see on their Energi when new. So, a 10.5% loss in capacity (about a 0.8 kWh loss) would reduce the 5.5 kWh for EV only to 4.7 kWh. EV only range has dropped about 15%. If one was getting 25 miles of range, one would now gets about 20 miles of EV.

See this thread. IMO, when looking at the INL voltage vs Ah HVB capacity curves (see first chart below), I wouldn't expect much, if any, loss in the ability to use the HVB available Ah / kWh capacity in the hybrid HVB over the same range for several 100 k miles. The yellow line is data at 160k miles. Thus, FE should not be affected as the HVB loses "normal" capacity. If you look at the curves, the bulk of the lost capacity is at the far right of the curve or where the knee of the curve is. In the operating voltage range of the HVB about 30% to 70% SOC (about 272 V to 295 V), the voltage of the different mileage curves are virtually the same. In addition, 272V is still rather far away from the knee of the curve. It would take more degradation to reach the knee where I assume the control algorithms would trigger DTCs and not allow the car to start (failed HVB?). We also do not know whether the algorithms might adjust the minimum votage upwards to accommodate degradation. I also plotted my HVB data at 103k miles from a test run of 57 miles to see how it compared to the INL data (see second chart below). My data seems in line with the INL data.

ptjones and Bill-N have already answered your question above in red but let me expand the short answer of "no". When you attempt to start the car and prior to "ready to drive", the 12V battery must be "good" to enable power up of the control modules. After power up, the status / functionality of all critical control systems / devices is checked by the module software. If a critucal fault is found (like dead HVB), the startup process stops. If no faults, the starup process continues and the ready to drive message is displayed. If you want to start ICE after the message, push and hold the accelerator pedal to the floor and ICE will be spun by the electric motor referred to as the generator or MG1 with power from the HVB.

If you look at the chart I posted derived from actual data, 1) when the battery symbol is full to the top, the HVB is at least at 65% SOC but the actual SOC could be higher as it is on the chart and 2) when the battery symbol shows empty, the HVB is no more than 27% SOC (extended dotted line on the graph) but perhaps it could go lower but no one has reported seeing actual SOC any lower than 27%.

Mary, let me start by saying driving only 1000 miles a year around town will likely not degrade your HVB very much if you simply do not charge fully every day. It's the number of charge / discharge cycles and when you charge (temperature related) that will affect the HVB most Also, I don't own an Energi and base my comments on what I have researched and read on forums and the internet. I chose not to buy a 2013 Energi in 2012 because of battery degradation issues associated with HVBs and my driving needs. Be aware that Ford does not warrant "normal" battery degradation. The HVB is not covered under the unique hybrid warranty simply because ones usable range declines say from 21 miles to 15 miles. Let me be clear on the 80%, the 80% SOC is what the MFM (displayed SOC) would show not what the Battery Energy Control Module would show (which should be close to actural SOC). You would need a smartphone App ($10) and an adapter ($25) that plugs into the OBDII port under the dash to read the BECM data. Based on posts and testing by larryh on the Fusion Energi site, he states the following: (actual SOC) = 20% + 80% x (displayed SOC). So, when displayed SOC = 0%: actual SOC = 20%. As displayed SOC approaches 100%, actual SOC approaches 100%. So, 80% displayed SOC = 84% actual SOC. If you limit the SOC to 80 % displayed, 1) you can likely charge several times a day and have have minimal HVB degradation due to high SOC and DOD (depth of discharge) cycling and 2) you will not have to worry about the HVB resting at a high SOC for days at a time (not good). What I don't know is what type of driving you do and how may miles you will get from one kilowatt hour (kWh) from the HVB. One should have roughly 5.5 - 5.7 kWh of usable energy on a full 100% charge. If it's suburban / urban driving and you don't use too much AC (or heat in the winter) you could likely get 25+ miles on a full charge. So, charging to 80% instead of 100% will likely remove over 1 kWh of the usable SOC or over 5 miles of range. [(16% x 7.0+ kWh) = 1.12+ kWh loss of range]. How fast the HVB degrades to greater than 1 kWh of usable SOC by your charging to 100% daily depends on conditions. I believe larryh may have made some estimates. If you do not plan to keep the car for more than a few years, then I wouldn't worry about how to charge. I've seen it on the Energi forums where owners are unaware of battery degradation and then complain about how many miles they lost and Ford is no help. What I would do is to run a test on what your usable kWh is after a full charge. This will give you an idea of how much degradation has already occured. The Energi forum describes the procedure (it's simple). You really should know where you are starting from. Maybe there is little or perhaps more than "normal" degradation. You could also then charge to 70%, 80%, 90% and see how such charge affects your range. Then, determine your likely daily use of your car (miles) for the next day and either 1) charge up to the level the night before to meet the next day needs or if there is still enough range to cover your next day use, don't charge that night. Just be mindfull and don't charge to 100% every day. Even though you only drive maybe 1000 miles a year around town it's the cycling to 100% and heat that degrades the HBV not necessarily miles driven. It almost sounds like you might be able to charge one a week even to 100% given your miles might be 1000 miles per year (other than longer trips). If that is the case you likely have little to worry about.

Mary, it's best to never fully charge but to only charge to 80% maximum. The HVB degrades with number of cycles to full charge and higher battery temperature. I don't own an Energi, but do follow the Energi forum. Someone on the Energi forum can tell you the best way to charge to 80% as I don't believe it can be done automatically. So, you may lose 6 miles of EV range charging to 80% instead of 100%. But, if you charge to 100% everytime you arrive home, the HVB will degrade at a significantly faster rate than charging to 80 % and within a few years you might lose 6 miles of range charging to 100% everytime. Also, in the winter electric heaters are used to heat the cabin. Using the heaters will use power from the HVB and EV range will be lower thus likely require more frequent charging.

ICE is connected to the planet carrier (which hold the planet gears), generator (MG1) to the sun gear, and traction motor (MG2) to the ring gear. The planetary gears connect to the sun gear and ring gear. So with ICE off, the planet carrier does not spin and hence remains in a stationary position. With ICE still off, the traction motor can propell the car ( EV mode) which will spin the ring gear and drive wheels. The ring gear then spins the planet gears but the carrier remains stationary (ICE off). The spinning planet gears then spin the sun gear (and generator) So, ICE would have to spin if connected to the sun gear in EV mode. ICE would have to spin both forward and backward. The generator would be on planet carrier which could be allowed to spin with ICE stationary. But, my guess is that the gearing would be significanly mismatched such that additional gears would be required with ICE on the sun gear and genetator on the planet carrier. The current arrangement would likely result in a smaller transmission. I have seen hybrid transmission designs that use clutches, a second planetary gear set, more gears that could allow ICE to be connected virtually anywhere. But the C-Max transmission is rather simplistic in design (although not intuitive) but requires software control rather than mechanical control to control power / torque / direction of travel.

Please redshift, try to understand what happens. No one said the traction motor reverses going down the highway. The generator motor MG1 will reverse going down the highway in negative split mode from positive split mode. You clearly do not understand how a planetary gear set works even with my graph of actual data and the animation. It seems you confuse torque flow from the motors with rpm. The shafts do not have to always spin the same way. The shafts can spin either way and act as a motor using electric power or as a generater making electric power no mater what direction the shafts spin. obob is absolutely correct. Nothing will happen as the algotithms monitor rpm of all rotating devices and will not allow conflicts to happen. Also, I wasted my time trying to validate your statement redshift: " Notice how Ford stresses in the owner's manual to be at a full stop when switching into reverses or you could damage the tranny." I can't find where Ford says "or you could damage the tranny." You made something up. The likely reason you want to be at a full stop is safety oriented because the car will continue to move even though you shifted into R likely in the opposite direction one wants the car to move. I'm done with trying to educate. Believe what you want to redshift and quit adding misinformation to my posts to make it appear that I said it instead of you.

For those that don't understand how a Power Split transmission works go to this link and set the sliders in the animation as I describe below for examples of how positive, negative, EV, reverse, and stationary modes work. The rpms shown are based on the Prius transmission. The C-Max rpms will be different but the same principles apply. Also, this diargam is for rpm only and not torque as the motors can supply positive or negative torque irrespective of rotational direction. Stationary Mode: vehicle is not moving. 1) set the traction motor slider (MG2) to zero mph. 2) move ICE slider up and down. 3) the generator rpm will be positive and the control algorithms will determine whether to charge the HVB by applying the appropriate three phase voltages and frequency to generator (MG1) so that current will flow from the generator to the inverter and then to the HVB. The rotation of MG1 is deemed positive. Reverse Mode: vehicle is moving in reverse. 1) set the traction motor slider (MG2) to -10 mph. 2) move ICE slider to zero. 3) the generator rpm (MG1) will be positive. The traction motor (MG2) will supply torque to the wheels so the vehicle moves in reverse (negative rpm). EV Mode: ICE is off and vehicle is being propelled by the traction motor (MG2). 1) set ICE to zero rpm. 2) move MG2 slider up and down above zero rpm. 3) the generator rpm (MG1) will be negative. For the C-Max, the gearing is such that rpm is almost a -1:1 ratio of MG1:MG2 rpm. The control algorithms will use the energy from the HVB to operate MG2. Positive Split Mode: ICE is on and vehicle is moving. HVB being charged. 1) set ICE rpm slider and traction motor rpm slider (MG2) so that the generator rpm (MG1) is greater than zero. This is positive split mode where the control algoritms determine how much ICE torque is applied to the generator to charge the HVB. Negative Split Mode: ICE is on, HVB SOC is high (control algorithms won't allow any more charge), and vehicle cruising at higher speed. 1) Set MG2 rpm high (say above 65 mph) to simulate that EV mode would not likely be used. 2) set ICE slider so that MG1 rpm is about zero. 3) now slide ICE rpm lower simulating constant torque but at reduced rpm (more efficient operating point on the BSFC map of ICE). MG1 rpm is negative (physical rotation has changed from positive split mode. The control algorithms will operate MG1 as a motor applying torque to slow down ICE. The traction motor rpm remains constant but may act as a generator to utilize the combined torque of ICE and MG1 or motor if additional torque is required in both cases to maintain speed. As one can see from my graph in a previous post and the linked demo (despite what Redshift continues to say), the algorithms will switch the physical direction of rotation of the generator extremely quickly via electronics and seamless to the driver for the benefit of operating most efficiently.

Redshift tell me what happens when you shift into reverse????

Mary, you should ask your question on the Energi forum and also read about (ask) how to minimize the "normal" degradation of the High Voltage Battery via charging and operations. There are many threads on the subject. Here's one on the HVB usable kWh of capacity. http://fordcmaxenergiforum.com/topic/6327-low-battery-capacity-thread-45-kwh-or-lower-via-myfordmobile/

See below. What one does not know is whether a marketer puts higher levels of detergent in premium than regular. However, all grades of Top Tier must meet TopTier detergent requirements. Is TOP TIER™ only for premium gasoline or diesel? No. Premium describes a grade of fuel intended for use in performance engines with higher compression ratios, which may be damaged when using lower octane grade fuel. TOP TIER™ fuel marketers are required to use TOP TIER™ for all for all octane grades of gasoline and diesel sold at their stations. TOP TIER™ is a standard in fuel many automakers feel is necessary for acceptable engine cleanliness performance for all vehicles, regardless of octane requirements. All engines will benefit from a higher standard in cleanliness resulting in a vehicle performing as intended: noticeable in longevity, reduced down time, minimized emissions, and higher customer satisfaction.

Yes, I can also increase speed (apply throttle) above 65 mph now in EV but not pre-13B07. This discussuon started based on how to determine whether the poster had 13b07. Yes, the torque monitor algorithm will see less torque requirement because of your aero mods. Obviously, the algorithms in the Energi will have more kWh available in the HVB and an auxiliary electric cooling pump, and thus can allocate all torque requirements to EV up to the nominal 85 mph limit or max torque limit of the traction motor for a longer period of time than the hybrid. I have already driven nearly 2 miles in EV mode several years ago and documented it in this post. What point are you trying to make? My SOC declined about 30% or HVB energy declined about 0.4 kWh. At slow speed one should be able to drive about 5 miles per kWh or 2 miles on 0.4 kWh - nothing new. :)

Before 13b07 I could drive at 66 mph in EV by doing exactly what I said in my previous post. What I could not do was to increase speed from below 62 to 66 mph in EV. In fact, even with the EV limit at 85 mph it's virtually impossible to accelerate from a lower speed to 85 mph in EV unless one is going down a steep grade. I believe overall torque requirement is also taken into account in addition to absolute speed when determining EV mode operation.

Watch the EMPOWER screen. On slight downgrade with SOC above 50% and speed 70+ mph, back off throttle slightly until screen shows you are in EV mode and speed should still be around 70 mph. ICE willl be off. If speed falls to mid 60s mph before EV mode, you likely do not have the update.

:confused: :confused: premium? You need fuel with more detergent additive not higher octane. But it's your $ not mine. :)